22/03/2017 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.

It's day two of the debate at Holyrood on whether there should

For the UK Government to stand on the way of Scotland having a choice

would be unfair non-sustainable. Most people in Scotland I was sick

to death of the games. Most people do not want another referendum any

time soon. The debate re-starts in 10 minutes -

MSPs are gathering And here at Westminster,

the politics of Brexit and Scottish independence become entangled,

as Theresa May and the SNP clash The Scottish Parliament

continues its debate in the next few minutes on whether there should be

a second independence referendum. MSPs are expected to back

First Minister's plan Our political editor

Brian Taylor is at Holyrood now. What have we learned today? . It is

day two so they will continue from yesterday. They opened with the main

speakers from the parties yesterday. It is a two-day debate for the

Liberal Democrats. To crush it into one day would be too short. They

carry on today. They are not having opening front bench speakers. Wii U

go to 5:30pm. Adelaide Ft. It is expected that the Greens will vote

with the SNP to do manned powers be to hold a referendum. It is that

that point that one has to take a judgment as to the status of that.

The tours bash Macs Scottish Government and the Green supporters,

Patrick Harvie just coming up here now. The Scottish National Party and

their potential Green supporters will see that if there is a majority

here at Holyrood that Parliament has spoken, that the Prime Minister

should pay heed to that and transfer those powers. We had a pre-emptive

strike from the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Scotland and

the leader of the Scottish Conservatives saying they wanted to

make it clear what would be their reply and the reply is no, not no,

not during the breaks that period. It is likely you have a stand-off

and series of persuasive manoeuvres, each trying to cajole the others.

Have you got any sense of the debate of where it is going? You say as

stand-off but Theresa May just as there will not be a section 30 if

you still feel very strongly about this in two or three years' time,

come back and we will have a chat about. What happens? It is not easy

to see what the First Minister does to change her mind if the Prime

Minister remains adamant. Along the lines of saying no, no and no and

not listening and not taking the question any longer. There are a

number of options open. Some not palatable to her. She can call an

unofficial referendum. She does not think that will have status and will

not be regarded well by the people of Scotland. She could attempt to

call an early election, it is not in her gift, it is our vote by

Parliament 's ear itself whether it resolves -- dissolves. That is not

going to happen. The SNP say they have a mandate already. You are down

to persuading and cajoling. I have asked many people and I have not

heard good and sewers, at the strongest as has come from inside

parliament. When it comes to negotiations, they will, stage when

the UK Government needs the support of the legislative consent of the

Scottish Government and parliament and that gives them something of a

lever to prise away end. Is a powerful and strong? No, it is not

but that is where we are. The politics of this, one assumes that

Nicola Sturgeon will hope that people of Scotland will feel so

outraged that they will get more support for independence. And the

Labour Party and Ruth Davidson and Theresa May will hope that people

get fed off of it. It is all absolutely finally and ultimately

all about the mood of the Scottish people. Nicola Sturgeon's belief is

that people will be dismayed and outraged that the possibility of a

referendum has been taken away. She believes that the people of Scotland

will feel sufficiently outraged and as the Brexit information comes to

Fulton out, they will want to have a say, again from the First Minister's

perspective, giving Scotland a choice. The opposite is what the

government believe. You have to prime ministers, two parliaments,

you have competing mandates, competing interpretations of the

political status of Scotland and the UK. But ultimately you have an

appeal to the populace for support. Thank you very much for that.

Crystal clear as always. The Prime Minister, Theresa May,

said last week that now was not the time

to hold a second referendum Our Westminster Correspondent

David Porter is here. Politicians in London

are watching developments at What do you expect the government to

do if anything? I would imagine what we will get from the government

later on is what we got from them last week. Now is not the right

time. Ten Downing St is expecting the Scottish Parliament to pass the

motion this afternoon and although the result is expected it is going

to be no less significant for them. I would expect at some point Downing

Street to come out with a form of words that says we hear what the

Scottish Parliament has said but we still regard it as untenable to

think about an independence referendum in Scotland while the

Brexit negotiations are going on. There will be many saying to Theresa

May, you have made that statement, you can in no way go back on it now.

The interesting point there is what do you think the government would

do? The government could say in response to Nicola Sturgeon, let's

have some talks on a date or they could refuse to get involved in

that. And say, we have said there will not be a section 30 order. If

you and the Scottish Government feel you want a referendum in two or

three years' time, come back and we will have a chat then. But we will

not formally respond at the moment. , There is a school of thought

thinking that is the way to go ahead. The focus will move onto

Brexit and Downing Street will think what it will like to park the

independence issue ever could. There were some comments that Theresa May

made last week which said no, not at the moment. But she did not rule out

forever and a day there would be a second independence referendum in

Scotland. But her advisers and her making it plain, they will not go

into negotiations while Brexit negotiations are going on. Speaking

to a few MPs across the political spectrum, at the field perhaps the

earliest could be any referendum would be the autumn of 2019. They

say at the end of the day there will have to be compromise on both sides

on this issue but paying bash Maclay of very high

stakes. Although they are diametrically opposite, Nicola

Sturgeon and Theresa May. They are quite similar. I spoke to one senior

MP how he thought it might play out. He went, it is going to be like two

big beasts clashing with each other. They see both parties as very

different term and on theirs. They are paying for high stakes. Any

negotiations that has to be compromise. But at the moment there

is no sign of that from any side. Thank you for that. You will be back

later in the programme. Is that rain behind you? Who knows?

As you've been hearing, today is the second day

Yesterday, there were lively exchanges, with the Scottish

Conservatives arguing there's no public consent for a second

Labour and the Lib Dems say Scotland would be better off

While the Greens say the people must have their say and tonight they'll

join with the SNP to form a pro-independence majority -

stating that parliament seeks a second referendum.

The voice of this Parliament has spent a good every step of the way.

We faced the prospect of the UK Government using Brexit to preserve

for itself powers. The voice of this Parliament has been ignored at every

step of the weight and far from any indication of new powers, we now

face the prospect of the UK Government using Brexit to reserve

for itself powers in areas that are currently devolved to this

Parliament. I want to turn out to the question of the timing of a

referendum. As a matter of principle, the timing together with

decisions on franchise and subject to that of advice of the advisory

board. The Prime Minister has said that now is not the time and I agree

with that. The choice must be informed. That means it should not

happen before the terms of Brexit are known. In this speech she gave

at Lancaster House in January, the Prime Minister said there is and I

caught, I want is to have reached an agreement on future ownership by the

time the two-year Article 50 process has happened. The terms of that

agreement will require to be clear around six months in advance, autumn

next year, to allow for the process of EU ratification. The European

Commission has said there will only be 18 months negotiation. That has

led to my view that the earliest time at which Scotland can make and

in form choice will be the autumn of next year. It is also important that

the choices made well it is still possible in a timely manner to

choose a different path. Therefore it is also judgment that the latest

date for that choice... I am going to make some progress. The latest

date for that choice to be made should be around the time that the

UK leaves the U -- EU in the spring of 2019. That is the time frame I am

asked in Parliament to endorse today. Let me make this clear, is

the UK Government disagrees with that time frame, then they should

set out a clear alternative and the rationale for it. As I have said in

recent days, I am within reason happy to have that discussion to see

if we can find common ground that I can then propose to this Parliament.

However it will simply not be acceptable for the UK Government to

stand as a roadblock to the democratically expressed will of

this Parliament. Let me set out the many reasons why my party will be

opposing the motion today. It calls on this Parliament to gain the power

to call a referendum between the autumn of 2018 and the spring of

2019. The motion also insists it is only this Parliament who should have

busy over the franchise and the details of this referendum. This

bulldozer approach is completely at odds with the way in which the 2014

referendum was held and how different things are today. Because

under this First Minister the SNP lost its majority with no clear

pledge to hold the referendum. I am sorry but believing something should

happen if something else takes place may be many things but it is not a

clear mandate. And furthermore the SNP wants to unilaterally decide on

the rules and timing of the referendum. And we now know that

there is no agreement between the UK and Scottish governments on the

prospects of this referendum. I remained the SNP today they once

described the last referendum with 92% across the public, as a gold

standard approach. And this today, this is not called standard. Is that

in brooch approach. The SNP's plans last week were not about holding a

fair, legal decisive referendum. What it is really about is very well

rehearsed game which is to put forward an unworkable proposal, to

whisper Westminster politicians the point that out and then to rush to

any microphone with the angry face on and to trot out the same

complaints. Once upon a time it might even have worked. But it will

not any more because most people in Scotland are sick to death of the

games. Most people in Scotland don't want another referendum any time

soon. Brexit is just the latest excuse. We have heard a lot from the

First Minister about mandates. But people have noticed the shift in the

SNP's language. They used to demand the will of the Scottish people be

respected but the will of the Scottish people was clearly

expressed in 2014. 85% of our fellow citizens floated in the first

referendum and they voted by a very clear majority to remain in the

United Kingdom. More than 2 million Scots, in the biggest mandate ever

given to any political leaders in Scotland's history, voted to remain

in the UK. That is the will of the Scottish people and that is what is

due to be respected. The people of Scotland do not want another

divisive referendum. Last week the First Minister said the 2014

referendum was a device. She obviously didn't speak to many

people beyond her own party faithful. Because my experience and

the experience of the very many Scots who have taken the time to

tell me on the doorstep in the street and by e-mail is that this

country, their country, felt more divided than it any time in their

lives to memory. Families argued, colleagues fell out and communities

were split down the middle. And last Monday, the first day of

this campaign felt just as hostile and polarised as the 847th and final

day of the last. Where does it end? Theresa May promised to develop a

shared approach with all the devolved administrations before

moving forward with Article 50. We can see how empty that promise was.

And finally, on the question of timing, the idea of delaying this

after 2019 and we have been given the opportunity to see how our new

relationsh with Europe is work is after the negotiation concludes when

there is clarity about the arrangements. A deal negotiated by a

UK Government Scotland didn't choose with an EU institution on which

Scotland is no longer remitted, about -- represented, about Brexit

which Scotland didn't vote for and a period of ratification by every

other European country, that would leave the future of Scotland in the

hands of everybody else in Scotland. The citizens of Scotland the only

people voiceless in that process. I don't accept that. I want to create

a federal United Kingdom with power shared across the country, with a

written constitution, fair votes and an elected second chamber. These are

the reforms that are on the way to make our United Kingdom even

stronger. The campaign for independence undermines that chance.

The Liberal Democrats stated clearly in our manifesto that we would

oppose another divisive independence referendum and that is exactly what

we will do. Joining me in the studio

today is the political What did you make of the debate? I

don't think we learned anything new from either side. Most of the

arguments were very well rehearsed. There were a couple of stars, a

couple of people who were eloquent on either side at stating what they

believed in. I think today what will unfold today will build on that and

we will still at the end of the day be wondering what you wanted to know

in your first question at the top of the programme, what happens next.

Brian said he is learning from people he talks to around the

Scottish Government that they think even if Theresa May ignores it, at

some point she will require consent from the Parliament. Do we have

years of a Mexican stand off or what? On one hand this is, as one or

two people said, we are in unchartered constitutional

territory. However, last week both Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May each

gave the other a bit of wriggle room. When Theresa May said, no

referendum now, she tint say never. - she didn't say never. And Nicola

Sturgeon indicated she may be willing to negotiate and compromise

over the outside date for a referendum and that seems to make

sense. These are the opening salvos of a struggle which will probably

play out over the next two and a half years. Am I being completely

cynical if I were to suggest it might suit both of them to have

kicked this into the long grass? Yes, because nobody, even those

close to Nicola Sturgeon, last year, prior to her announcement last week,

nobody believed that Nicola Sturgeon wanted an early referendum. And

Theresa May of course doesn't want to be fighting a war on two fronts.

What Nicola Sturgeon has in her favour is that her proposed timeline

falls within the time line that Theresa May had set for the

conclusion of Brexit negotiations. What going an extra six months or so

until 2019? I would say there will be unofficial... The only constraint

on the the Scottish Government would be they would like a referendum

before the next Holyrood election. Because their mandate runs out in

2021, the date of next Holyrood election. And it was difficult

enough getting an overall majority in 2011 as we saw in 2016 there is

no guarantees whatsoever that the SNP would gain or there would even

be a yes voting majority in 2021. Don't run away we well be back with

you. So today's business at Holyrood

is all about a Second Independence Referendum,

with the second day of debate on the issue -

let's cross to the chamber now An independent Scotland as an EU

member would face trading tariffs with the rest of the UK. A market

that is worth to Scotland four times what of the EU market. The rationale

that we need to be independent to join the EU to protect Scotland's

economy from trade tariffs between Europe and the UK and then as a

member of the EU single market have these trade tariffs imposed back

upon us with the rest of the UK is simply ludicrous. The economics of

the argument do not add up. I'm just... Finishing this point. You

might well answer your intervention. The significance of the EU market is

diminishing in importance to Scotland. Since 2002, Scottish

exports to the EU market have only grown by 8%. Compared to trade with

the UX single -- UK single market increasing by 74% and to the rest of

the world by 85%. Despite all of this, the SNP wants to put the

trading relationship with the EU ahead of the internal UK market.

This refusal to recognise any benefit derived from being part of

UK is a result of an increasingly nasty nationalism. This took a turn

for the worse over the weekend, with further seeds of division sown. A

senior SNP minister stated that the debate should be propositioned

around the theme, Scotland against the Tories. This is dangerous,

because it equates the SNP with Scotland. It seeks to define

nationhood and nationality in the SNP's image. It says to half a

million Scots who voted Conservative at the last election, that you're

not Scottish and you don't have a place in SNP Scotland. Well, let me

tell the SNP, I'm Scottish and you don't speak for me. Such abject

language from the SNP doesn't serve Scotland's interest. I urge the SNP

to moderate their tone and do their best to avoid the vile slurs, hatred

and bully boy tactics of the last independence campaign. The SNP must

put Scotland first, they must respect the democratic decision

Scotland took in 2014 and now is not the time for a second independence

referendum. Alex Neil. Can I just start on a personal note to thank

you, Paul Grice, the staff and my friend for the messages of best

messages during my recent illness. You will be glad to know that from

the ambulance I was able to tweet that there would be no by-election

in Airdrie and Shotts! I have campaigned all my adult life for

Scottish independence, so I want to see a second referendum at the right

time, in the right circumstances. As with the first referendum, the

arrangements including the time of the referendum for the second time

must be decided by this Parliament. Now my apologies for dipping out of

Alex Neil, because we want go back to David Porter in Wech, there has

been -- Westminster there has been a security alert at the House of

Commons. Apologies for not being in front of a camera. That area has

been cleared by the police. You may hear a lot of sirens. We understand

that there has been a shooting near the Portcullis House entrance. We

understand there has been a shooting. The whole area around

Whitehall and Westminster has been locked down. Within the last few

moments the the air ambulance has landed just outside the houses of

Parliament. There is a huge amount of police activity. We are all being

kept behind a security cordon. There are some reports that the sitting of

House of Commons, House of Lords has been suspended. I stress, I can't

confirm that, because I'm being held in a security cordon. As you would

expect, there is a little bit of confusion to put it mildly at the

moment. But a lot of areas around Westminster have been cordoned off.

As you probably hear, no shortage of sirens and a lot of police and

personnel and ambulances have been coming and going. I can't give you

chapter and verse, at the moment we do not know. We are told there has

been a shooting outside Portcullis House where many of the MPs have

their offices. As you would imagine at the moment, the police are trying

to make the area security and contain the area. You say, you don't

know whether the proceedings at either of the houses has been

suspended. Presumably there would be in place and it would be easy to

evacuate Lords and MPs should that be necessary? Yes, I think the first

thing they normally do and when we have security incidents before, what

tends to happen is they lock the Palace of Westminster down and try

and keep people inside. If they're in a confined area that is normally

secure, the House of Commons and the House of Lords are guarded by armed

police and there are security barriersout side. Out site. What

they wouldn't want is people wandering about. The buildings I

work at at Millbank, about two or three minutes from the palaces of

Westminster, where the BBC have their offices, that has been locked

down. There is a great deal of nerve usness I would say from the police

here at the moment. I think they're trying to establish what is going

on. David, just to interrupt you, we are seeing pictures coming in live

from Westminster. You can see that the traffic, there is a row of

buses, that has been blocked. They're trying to shut down the

whole area by the looks of it? Yes we are about to be moved back. More

police vehicles coming, you can hear the sirens probably. In fact that is

an ambulance which is coming now. What the police have wanted to do is

move people around and make sure that the area that they are in is

secure and that they can be confident that there is going to be

no further incidents. Obviously, the initial few minutes perhaps half an

hour is often to put it mildly quite confused. People are abiding by what

the police are asking them to do. But make no mistake, the police are

taking this extremely seriously. David, thank you. We may just join

later. This is alarming. Just judging from

the pictures there, you can see this as being treated very seriously.

Yes, it is a free BREL time we're living through. People are still

aware of what happened to Jo Cox last year. There was a female SNP MP

who had been receiving death threats.

And as a result of that bill of ?634,000 has been spent on security.

But as we see it, all that is required, how easy it can happen. If

there is sufficient determination. Portcullis House which is not the

Houses of Parliament. It is a relatively new building. If it was

there, portcullis House is just to the left of the main entrance. That

is where a lot of the MPs have their offices. And the thing about London,

is specially that part of London, where people want to scrutinise and

to see the conduct and unfolding of democracy, you don't want to have

stifling security that will actually undermine that. So there will always

be opportunities. Kevin, thank you for that. We will come back to you

Time now for our regular catch up with MSPs.

Today, we're joined by Ivan McKee from the SNP.

From the Scottish Conservatives it's Miles Briggs.

Alison Johnstone from the Scottish Greens.

And for the Scottish Lib Dems it's Liam McArthur.

all of you, I am sure you would all be concerned at the news we are

getting in from London at the moment that there has been some sort of

shooting. I am not going to ask you about that because we are all in the

dark until more information comes round. Let's go back to the debate

in the Scottish Parliament today. First, Ivan McKee, what is your

interpretation of what the British government is saying about as

accurate referendum? Is it that they sing you can have one but not just

right now or do you think they are manoeuvring to try and rule it out

entirely? I assume they are using the words carefully and then now is

not the time would mean that some time. I think if if you look at the

Conservative amendment to the debate were heaved Ashraf in gold of the

two days, as a government we are saying it should be sometime between

the negotiation is complete in the autumn of 2018 and the date of exit

from the EU which is March 20 19. And if I interpret it right, what

the Conservatives are saying yes there will be a referendum but it

will be after April 20 19. I expect we will move forward in the next

weeks and months around the date of the referendum and timing. But the

way I am reading it is that they have conceded that there will be a

second referendum. Is that right Miles Briggs? We are going through

one of the most difficult times in Scottish politics in British

politics. Most people will think the Prime Minister is right thing this

is not the time. Is the Conservative position that there can be a second

referendum, just not before either Brexit or a period of time after

Brexit. I know you don't what one, but have the Conservatives change

their position to say we will stop you having one? No, I position has

been the same since the outside. We will listen to the people of

Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon said that as well. This week the public

opinion seems to be moving towards us not having a referendum and

people are saying quite clearly they want to move country forward, not to

go back to the division of the past. But that is a key message, that

people in Scotland need to decide this. Not Ivan or the First

Minister. You, like the Conservatives, say that if there can

be another one, what is the problem? We are opposed to independence. It

was only two and a half years ago we had the independence referendum. We

have been through these arguments whether there should be one

endlessly. What is your take on the refusal of the British government to

allow the Scottish Parliament, should it bought this afternoon for

one, to have one. Is it your position that the British government

should not stop it or Theresa May should hold for a of years? The

Scottish people voted to have years ago not to have independence. Are

you saying you support the British government saying, no you cannot

have one. We believe there should not be one before Brexit is agreed.

You would agree that should the Scottish parliament vote for one,

there should be won at some point, perhaps not now? If there was to be

a second referendum is independent there would have to be clear support

from the people of Scotland. Also the SNP would need to set out a

clear plan and a clear prospectus. They are all over the place on

currency and Europe. Alston Johnston, why are you voting against

a referendum now given that you said in your manifesto that there

shouldn't be one unless there was clearly expressed will to have one?

Our manifesto clearly that in a second independence referendum, the

Greens would campaign for one. Can I read you, there is an interview with

Patrick Harvie in April last year in which he said there should be

another... He said that Brexit should not be used as an excuse to

have another referendum. This is before Miles said it is very

challenging political times. This is a decision that the Scottish people

should have a voice in. The way that Miles Briggs would have it would be

that it would be up to Theresa May. Hang on. You are not addressing the

issue. The entire basis of the SNP calling for another referendum is

that they had a commitment in their manifesto that should there be

Brexit voted for in Britain but not in Scotland that would give them a

reason for another referendum. Your manifesto which you put the people

of Scotland last year makes no mention of such a thing. It says

there should not be another referendum unless a majority of

those in Scotland want one. It clearly does not say there shouldn't

be another referendum. It states that in the event of a second end

dependence referendum the Greens will campaign for independence. No

one would... Miles Briggs Alison make the point. You are

avoiding this. I am most certainly not avoiding it.

whole vote if you don't. It would be responsible for us to setback let

the Conservative Before we forget you, you have got

the unique position in this. You were saying FI understand Willie

Rennie, there should be no referendum. The British government

is right to tell the Scottish Parliament no way. There has been

much talk about manifestos. If I can paraphrase hours from last

May. We would not support a second independence referendum through the

cause of this parliament that remains our position. Like others

have said, there is no demonstrable overwhelming public support for a

second independence referendum. I don't think anyone is anxious to

reopen some of the divisions we saw open up in 2014. That is a view

shared not just amongst those who voted the last time but some who

voted yes. Miles Briggs says the Conservatives are not invincible

against another referendum. In a sense they recognise the mandate

that was in the SNP manifesto although it should not be now. But

you don't seem to recognise that the SNP has any mandate. You see the

British government should stop them. I stood by the manifesto commitment

and I have every intention of honouring later on. You have posed

them yourself to Alison. The Greens position going into that election

was very clear. There was a purchaser but democracy that seems

to have been redefined in a few meetings on Wednesday. And now they

see fit to back this, to give the SNP the mandate that they will claim

to be the Parliament -- and you will. Let's face that they have

ignored routinely ever since they lost the majority after the last

election. I will cut you off there. I would have liked to have gone on

but we want to get an update on this very rapidly situation in London.

Please accept my apologies and join us again next week if you will.

Thank you for that. Let's go back to Westminster where there are reports

of shooting near the Houses of Parliament. Parliament is in

lockdown. Our correspondent David Porter is on the line. Give us

what you have found out since the last time we spoke. It is still a

very fluid and developing situation. If I shout it is because it is

difficult to hear what is going on. It is becoming clear there has been

a very serious security incident. There are pierced when a shooting

outside one of the entrances to portcullis House

which is where a lot of the MPs have their offices. There are unconfirmed

reports on social media that there was some kind of incident on

Westminster Bridge which crosses the river just by the Houses of

Parliament when it appears that there were vehicle

may have tried to mow some pedestrians down. I was looking at

Westminster Bridge at the moment. There are a huge number of emergency

services vehicles, all the traffic has been stopped that I can see,

probably half a dozen to a dozen London buses on that bridge at the

moment. Amongst the police and security personnel here, there is a

good deal of nervousness. What they're trying to do is create a

large accordance around the Palace of Westminster at the moment.

MPs and their staff have been told that they should stay in their

offices and await further instruction. What the police appear

to be doing is trying to make a bigger

security cord and all the time. Initially it was around the Houses

of Parliament. It is now being extended. Traffic has been stop from

all the area around the Houses of Parliament. There are police

helicopters, the buses are being re-routed. It is becoming evident

that this has been and is being treated as a very serious security

incident. In which it does appear that at least one person has been

injured. As I say, it is an ongoing situation. There is, as you always

get in these situations in the initial aftermath, some amount of

confusion about what the police want to do at the moment. They want to

make sure that they can secure an area. But it would be wrong in any

way to underestimate the seriousness of what has happened this afternoon.

We are seeing some live pictures there. Exactly what you are saying.

The police appear to be... We are looking down on her Whitehall. The

police are trying to block of Whitehall and perhaps, perhaps as I

can see, extend the line behind that of it so that goes... That is what

they are doing. I am standing on a road that runs

opposite Whitehall. You have got Parliament Square, for those who do

not know the Palace of Westminster, you have Whitehall going up one side

of the river. What they appear to be doing all the time is trying to push

the cord and back. Whitehall is where the UK Government offices are.

It is where Downing Street is. They will want to ensure that they can

guarantee the safety of ministers and their staff and

Let's go back to chamber at Holyrood, where the debate

on a second Independence Referendum is still going on -

Here I was what I said, Emily had just woke up, her first two words

were mum,y independence? No darling. Is it not was her reply. I didn't

realise that was a matter for laughing, but I think the people of

Scotland will judge you on that. Just found out oldest daughter

joined the SNP, paid ?2, well done Glasgow and you all worked hard, I

have never seen it look like that before. My sister went on even when

mum voted and she is very frail, I was proud of her, we are proud in

this household. My mum has since passed away and I was proud of what

my mum did. It made me cry tears of pride, not tears of despair. My

nieces, my frail mum has passed away. They were not driven by

conflict and division. They wanted a better future for their family, for

their community and their country. So how dare Iain Gray talk about

sewing the seeds of division or talk about nasty nationalism. The

majority of people on both sides not divide, just want the best for their

country. Some will never shift their views. You must close. Let me finish

say by saying I want an independent Scotland. Let the people decide. Not

block the people like the Labour Party and the Conservatives. Please

sit down. I notice the last two speakers have gone well over. Can I

ask people to stick to six minutes and may I request those in the

public gallery to refrain from clapping or otherwise in relation to

any of the speeches. Thank you. Thank you. I rise to offer my

support to the Liberal Democrat amendment and to keep a promise made

to the residents of West Edinburgh who sent me here. This debate is

about another referendum, but it serves as a proxy for the discussion

about our continuing place in the United Kingdom. These islands run

through me from the London Newtown of my birth to the hill tops of

Wales where we scattered my grandfather. No such courtesy was

afforded to me yesterday. So I won't take an intervention. I have no

time. In my children born in Edinburgh, to a Scottish mother and

to the distant member memories of my family origins in Enniskillen. I

could not act to see the dissolution of their unity any more than they

colleague could act on EU withdrawal. I see no inconsistency

in that position. There has been talk of mandate, well, I have my man

Tait date -- mandate, I stood to oppose a referendum in these

circumstances. I have my instructions. I have said which will

not take an intervention. We live in a time of political chaos and the

wheel has turned in ways we never thought poss yin and we -- possible.

At times like this I can only hold on o' what I feel in my heart. Well

let's to something else Prime Minister's question took place well

in advance of the situation at Westminster at the moment, where

there is a security alert at the houses of Parliament. But Theresa

May and Jeremy Corbyn clashed on the issue of funding for schools in

England. Jeremy Corbyn said the UK government was cutting the schools

budget and spending millions on building grammar schools. Mr

Speaker, this government is cutting the schools budget by 6.5% by 2020.

Today we learn the national funding formula will leave a thousand

schools across England facing additional cuts of a further 7

Petrescu. %. Can the Prime Minister explain why cutting capital gains

tax, culting inheritance tax, cutting corporation tax, culting

bank levy, are all more important than our children's future? This

Government is committed to ensuring that all our children get the

education that is right for them what is what the Government's plans

for education will provide. And that is building on a fine record of the

past six and a half nearly seven years for Conservatives in

Government when we have seen 1.8 million more children in good or

outstanding schools. We have protected the schools budget and the

national funding formula is a consultation and there will be a

number of views. The consultation closes today and the department will

respond in due course. Mr Speaker, viewers will note that the Prime

Minister glossed over the fact she has reach nod agreement with the

devolved governments of United Kingdom. Mr Speaker, the Prime

Minister says that she wants Article 50 negotiations to lead to a deal.

And she wants people to know the outcome of the deal before it

approved. Will the Prime Minister confirm in the period for an

agreement the House of Commons will have a choice, the House of Lords

will have a choice, the European Parliament will have a choice. 27

member states of the European Union will have a choice. Mr Speaker, fit

is right for all of them to have a choice about Scotland's future, why

should the people of Scotland not have a choice about their future?

This isn't a question about whether the people of Scotland should have a

choice on their future. The people... The people of people the

people... The people of Scotland voted, took, exercised their right

to self-determination and voted in 2014 to remain a part of the United

Kingdom. The people of the United Kingdom last year voted to leave the

European Union. We are respecting both of those votes. He is

respecting neither of them. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and

Northern Ireland will be 95 years old. Scottish growth is a third of

Iceland and Ireland. Given the Prime Minister's supports Irish

independence and the benefits it has brought. Why does she oppose it for

Scotland. Will she show Scotland the respect the EU showed the UK in

respect to a referendum? I have to say to the honourable gentleman if

he is looking at issues around economic growth and quoted figures

she should pay attention to the most important market for Scotland, the

most important market is the market of the United Kingdom and that is

why Scotland should remain part of it. Kevin, we will should say to

people we will try to bring you more news on the situation in London.

Again, there is no point in us speculating when we don't know

what's going on. But this looks like a serious situation? Yes, first, you

want to, you will be thinking about the members of public who are there,

the politicians and all the people who work and we hope for their

safety and well being, but at the end of the day it is clearly a

serious situation. A couple of clues to that were when our correspondent

was talking about an ongoing situation. We know there appear to

be three possibility of two incidents. We have heard reports of

a shooting and possibly an attempt to mown people down, which would

give the police reason to believe it may still be happening. We don't

want to speculate. Specially from where we are. But because of what

has been happening in France and Germany, the police cannot be too

careful. And they will be expecting this could be a long unfolding

situation. I think we have David Porter on the line again. Can you

hear me? Yes I can. Give us the latest. The latest as we understand

it is and it is worth saying as the onset that this is still an ongoing

situation, but it appears to be a serious situation. It appears from

the sequence of events as we can piece them together that a car ran

into some pedestrians on Westminster Bridge just next to the houses of

Parliament. There are reports that between four and 12 people may have

been injured in that incident. It is also being reported as well that

someone was stabbed and separately there was a shooting incident

outside one of the entrances of Portcullis House. All this probably

happened now about an hour and a half ago. There is still a major

police operation ongoing. I'm standing on Lambeth Bridge, because

we have been pushed back with the security cordon, looking to

Westminster Bridge and it is base economy a situation where you can

see -- basically a situation where you can see ambulances and emergency

services vehicles on the bridge, together with the traffic, the

normal London buses which have been stopped. And as we speak, you are

finding that the police are trying to increase the size of this cordon

that they have at the moment. Progressively moving us back. To put

it mildly, there is a degree of nervousness as well as utter

professionalism from the police. They're dealing with it as a major

incident. They're taking no chances and they have realised something

serious has happened. As I say, we are hearing that before, between

four and 12 people were injured in that initial incident on Westminster

Bridge. It then appears as though there was a stabbing and separately

a shooting incident. As we understand it, MPs and their staff

have been told to stay in their offices at the houses of Parliament.

That is a precaution, because it is better to have people in a secure

environment where it is going to be easier to ensure that they are safe.

I should tell you we have got reports that... Apparently the

leader of Commons told MPs a police officer has been stabbed and the

alleged assailant was shot by armed police and the other thing we have

had in according to press association, the Prime Minister was

seen being ushered into a car as gun fire rang out. That was presumably

some time ago. Is everybody out of the area now? We don't know, the

houses of commons have been shut down. It would be normal for the

Prime Minister to be removed from the scene as quickly as possible.

Remember, she was in the House of Commons today for Prime Minister's

questions, quite often Prime Ministers after the questions spend

time talking to their backbench MPs or holding meetings. So it is not

surprising that when this incident happened that she would still have

been in the House of Commons. Frankly, her security detail, their

first priority would have been to get her away from the scene of the

incident as soon as possible. Although Downing Street is only

about a quarter of a mile from the houses of Parliament, what they

would have wanted to do is get her into a secure environment to

guarantee her safety and the safety of other MPs and ministers as well.

To go over this again, because you alluded to this, that it looks as if

there may have been at least two and possibly more incidents. That

presumably is what is making the security forces think this could be

very serious and ongoing? Yes, I think it is does appear. There

appears to have been an initial incident on Westminster Bridge

where, a car collided with some pedestrians and then it appears that

though somebody may have got out of that vehicle and tried in some way

to breach the security of Portcullis House. That may indicate why we have

a situation where a policeman was stabbed. Thank you. We will have to

leave it there. That is all for now. I'm back with Sunday Politics on

Sunday. First Minister's questions is tomorrow. Until then, goodbye.