26/02/2014 Politics Scotland

Welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme: Business and

independence - one leading firm tells a Holyrood committee Scotland

will be "tied up like a kipper" if there's a currency union.

Others welcome the prospect of Scotland going it alone.

Jobs and lives under threat - an angry reaction to the controversial

closure of police and fire control rooms. That's our debate live in the

Scottish Parliament. And here at Westminster, the Deputy

Prime Minister wades into the independence debate, saying the

First Minister can't have his ''cake and eat it.'' An independent

Scotland could be "tied up tighter than a kipper" if there was a

currency union with the rest of the UK according to the boss of the

Scottish firm, Aggreko. But the warning from Rupert Soames

was sharply contested by other bosses who were giving evidence to

MSPs on the economy committee at Holyrood. Our Political Editor,

Brian Taylor, was watching. This is a brick, a company based in

Barton. It is a global business that attached structure -- attack --

attracted global attention. It is far from me to say that it would be

sensible for Scotland to enter into a currency union with the rest of

the UK without being tied up like a.

It still gives plenty of freedom to have the flexibility to design and

fiscal policies that would stimulate business growth and attract business

into Scotland. For me it is a nonissue. I meet these guys day to

day in the pub and the club for lunch and I do not see, I do not

see, from my heart I do not see, a great deal of concern about it. So,

business is divided about the issue of independence and so are MSPs.

Welcome to Scotland in referendum year. Brian Taylor is at Hollywood

for us now. Thank you for joining me. Sharply divided but also very

predictable in some ways. A grandson of Winston Churchill, committed

unionist, and a well-known supporter of independence. It was predictable

what we were going to hear today, wasn't it? In a sense, they were

called but wasteful. They were called in as those sceptical about

independence and those are supportive of the idea. Jim McCall

said he started talking about powers and then there was a third tranche

of evidence about those who were undecided. That focused on the

powers within devolution. It is a relevant topic depending on the

referendum, possibly becoming even more relevant. Right now, they are

debating the issue of yes or no, so they have lined them up, if you

like, and I they have lined them up, if you

was overblown. I think it was interesting. It was interesting and

Jim McCall was making the ultimate for more powers. Was he essentially

saying, look what you could do with these powers and then move on? His

evidence was intriguing because he was putting it, as he said, from an

important business perspective and he said he could not understand why

anyone would oppose Scotland taking control of fiscal powers. He

believed that was very important and it was a business decision, running

the whole balance sheet rather than just the cost account. I think both

sides made their arguments very powerfully from their perspective

and the thing as well was it was intriguing to witness on the

committee each side, depending where they sat, trying to bring out the

view. They were saying, give independence a gift -- a good

kicking, you know you want to, in the pro camp and then those

favouring independence back the perspective given by the Scottish

government. They were following the silos of airing. As you mention,

MSPs listening to that evidence. Will they be doing a report at the

end of this? No, I think not. They are honourably divided between the

two perspectives. They would be to reports full top one report would

say, did you not hear what Rupert Soames was saying on the subject of

currency? And the other would say, Jim McCall on the subject of

Scottish investment and growth. It would be an exercise of the utility

to try to draw a single report on that. But it is advantageous to have

both sides of evidence out there. To have the evidence and the mid

position as well. The contribution to wider debate is very valuable.

Thank you very much. I'm joined in the studio for the duration of the

programme by Mike Wade from The Times. First of all, Brian was

saying it is interesting to hear what the business leaders were

saying, but it is very predictable. We do hear the same kind of things

from the different sides. What was interesting to me is I was at a

different venue in Edinburgh, which was the Church of Scotland, and

there rose and was making an argument about equality and getting

hold of tax and in other words legislating for tax and social

inclusion. I think she has a different view of what taxation

should do to Jim McCall. It is a bit like reading the White Paper, that

you have a chapter for business that says, yes, we will have low

corporation tax, and a chapter for inclusion which says, we will have a

higher tax for social inclusion. On the one side, you have people like

Rupert Soames highlighting what he would see as uncertainty surrounding

independence and then you have Jim McCall saying, let's try these

powers because then we can get independence. You will see what

these powers can do for you. Yes, and that is obviously Jim McCall's

position and we are not surprised by that. Some of the things that we

have heard in recent days, with TSB last week and with the statement

from standard life expected this week, I will be interesting

developments in this argument. There are noises about transaction costs

and what have you that are beginning to play. That is not good news for

the yes camp, I do not think. At the end of the day, as Brian was

pointing out, there will be no report. The MSPs are divided on

committee. It is a chance for arguments to be out, but we could be

searching for arguments which need to be decided on and decisions have

to be made. I did not find the points of view very illuminating. It

did not tell me anything new. That is the difficulty for many people.

Business leaders are key in the independence debate. We had from the

Chief Executive of GP against independence. We have heard from

other business leaders who operate independence. Do you think ordinary

voters listen to business people when it comes to these decisions? I

think there was some evidence in the Qu?bec referendum that these

highfalutin types were ignored by normal baiters. There is some very

interesting strata of the normal voters at the moment. Both sides are

trying to maximise on one side doubt and on one side positivism. It is

very important to wins this argument now. There is another argument

closer to people 's hearts that is also being fought. Thank you very

much for that. Let's pick up on today's debate in

the chamber. Labour have chosen the topic for the day and that's

justice. There's been widespread concern about the closure of local

police and fire control rooms following the setting up of a single

police force and single fire service. One of the key aims of the

debate is to allow MSPs to highlight possible concerns in their area. The

justification is, of course, to save money and to provide a modernised

and more responsive service. Let's hear the debate. Labour's Justice

spokesman is on hear the debate. Labour's Justice

chamber. I am sure we will come to that during the debate. Let me begin

by acknowledging at the start the sterling work performed by the staff

of police Scotland, the Scottish Fire rescue service and all the

emergency services on the of Scotland's communities. But, the

Cabinet Secretary for Justice has changed the very essence of policing

in Scotland. He has abandoned his responsible as he is for oversight

of the police work and let an authority implement the change on

local policing to amateur centric approach. -- to amateur centric

approach. It but appears to have become an archaic rule. The

accountability in the decision-making process of justice

systems have been all but eroded, making the notion of knowing consent

redundant. The public observation exercises undertaken in relation to

public counter closes, traffic wardens and the police and fire

service control room rationalisations were, in

themselves, farcical exercises. Hurried, confused and lacking in any

real opportunity in any instance of meaningful consideration. The

importance of local views and local priorities were reduced to an

afterthought as national teams of ports, football and firearms

policing as well as mounted sections and a support were deemed of being

of great importance. Key performance indicators have come the language of

Mr MacAskill's new force. indicators have come the language of

realities of crime in communities and reports from police officers

themselves of the fiddling of crime reports all contribute to a service

focused on headlines, good news stories and information management

instead of public detection and victim centred services. These

widespread changes, together with the worsening conditions for our

police officers, have been widely reported to have caused new debt is

of low morale amongst our front line officers and staff. A recent poll

showed that only one in ten staff feels valued, with backroom cuts

causing more problems for staff with over 3000 more hours of extra duties

for current officers, reducing the time they have to patrol our

streets. The Unison survey recently also found two thirds of staff said

their workload had increased with the advent of post-Scotland. Morale

amongst support staff appears to be even lower, with almost 1200 jobs

already lost and hundreds more to come. Many fear for their jobs,

having seen leaks sacrificed at the altar of the SNP pledge to deliver

1000 additional officers. That is costing ?15 million. It is

overlooking the need to scalp another ?60 million per year from

police budgets, no matter what. Simple mathematics show that 1000

more officers, -1200 support staff, leaves a deficit of staff in the

service. The recently announced level of ?20,000 for some police

have left many in the police service fiddling let down and disappointed.

The police family looks on the edge of a breakdown. It has been reduced

to a job, omission replaced by a form of Taylor is -- Taylor's style

management. The closure of public counter services and the abandonment

of control rooms have been predicated by this government. The

truth is that they need to let police Scotland -- raid police

Scotland of low-paid staff, to stop these cuts and ensure that these

services, once reduced, could be maintained there after. I am happy

to give way. Like many other members I have made representations around

my constituency but given that the member act the creation of a single

force and backed the budget which allocates the money to the police

force, what would he be doing differently within that envelope,

based on his own voting record? I am grateful for that question. I am

hope -- I hope it is meant in the good faith it will be received in.

We have a different approach to what has been received here and I will

come to it, I promise. The rush to close police control rooms in weeks

after a total absence of meaningful consultation and subsequent closures

in sterling, and Aberdeen, ahead of any ICT strategy, head of new

contracts to replace what have already been called very expensive

software is, all smacks of crisis management, driven towards

announcing a great success to the public, ?60 million saved, but

denying the truth in terms of costing the police, and to some

extent, Fire and rescue services, in terms of front facing services.

Letters get some terms of front facing services.

Holyrood. We have representatives from the SNP and the Conservatives.

Thank you for joining me. A litany of complaints from Graeme Pearson

about the Scottish police this. Is the police service on the break down

-- on the verge of breakdown in Scotland? It is the usual

complaint, that everything is going terribly. It is corporal freezer, we

are doomed. The police numbers are at a record high, and we have plans

in place. Creation of a national police force has allowed us to

create experts and specialisms that we were never able to do as 8-macro

forces. It is a success story for devolution. But you are closing

police counters and police controlled rooms, and when it comes

to the fire service, you are closing fire service control rooms. People

feel that new national forces are not accountable or taking local

views into account. Graham Pearson said it does not matter where the

call is picked up, as long as that is what happens, and it is what will

happen. We have alternatives, we have people contacting the police

through different means. People want to be able to pick up the phone and

get through to the police, and they are doing that rather than going

into the station 's. We need to shift resources to make sure that

people's demands are met. And we need to protect the extra front-line

officers that have played such a part in protecting the country. And

more responsive service, one that is saving money. You supported these

changes. We did not support them and did not vote for this. If

changes. We did not support them and everything is fine, he needs to get

out more and talk to more people round the country. We have seen the

closure of local control rooms, of public counters, and I lead a debate

here last night on the removal of traffic wardens from police

Scotland, in 18 local authority areas in the country which will

cause traffic chaos, a removal of community policing, and I think the

concerns being aired in the debate going on at the moment are very real

concerns from across the country, and the central agenda is to take

away local accountability and responsiveness. But one of the main

aims was to save money. The Scottish government is facing a reduced

budget from Westminster, as they often point out. So, by close

encounters people do not use, they are saving money, by rationalising

control rooms, you are also saving money, so I surprised that you are

not too keen on civic public money. -- saving public money. The removal

of traffic wardens has been done without any consultation in advance

with local authorities, so that means that areas will have to find

up to ?200,000 a year from their budget to replace the traffic

wardens in the local area. That is just passing the cost from one

public agency to local authority. So they might say that they are saving

money, but it is the pure council taxpayers in sterling that will take

the hit on it or otherwise see council services be squeezed. --

Stirling. Let me council services be squeezed. --

to Rupert Soames' comments, that Scotland will be wrapped tighter

than a kipper if they'd is a currency union. What is your view on

that? There are some interesting things he said. One of the things he

said was that, despite being an avid supporter of a no vote, he was

concerned about the exit from the EU. From across the panels, there

was a strong endorsement of the requirement for sterling to

continue, the desire for it to continue as the currency of Scotland

after independence, and we heard repeatedly how much of a benefit

that would be for Scotland and the UK. It is the usual political

posturing from people who have an interest in scaring the people of

Scotland, but the day after the referendum, people will sit down and

maturely construct the best way forward for both countries, which we

heard was the continuation of sterling. It is a well worn debate,

but MSPs were hearing from significant people, and they were

making some important points, some of the business people were making

important points about how the currency union should happen. Data

is one way to guarantee it, and that is to vote no in the referendum. All

we are doing is plunging ourselves into uncertainty about the future of

the currency. We heard from business figures this morning about the

consequences of a currency union. We heard from a prize-winning economist

in the New York Times saying that the independence movement's thinking

on this was muddleheaded, and you could not have a monetary union

on this was muddleheaded, and you union, which would be highly

dangerous, in his words. The rest of the UK have made it clear that there

is no interest in having a currency union. We have to leave it there.

Thank you both very much for joining us.

Let us speak to make weight from The Times once again. Let us speak up

from that -- pick-up from that point. A litany of complaints about

the new police Scotland, that he was laying out in the chamber. Was it

fair to make these points? The whole point of it was to try to save money

under tighter budgets. It remains me about debates last year about the

Coast Guard 's. There is not endless money for the emergency services,

and with the best will in the world, there will be cuts. In that debate

there, weirdly they can both be right. The police family, and I have

spoken to a lot... If Kenny Miss Kath -- Kenny MacAskill appears in

front of the police, he gets cheered. I remember in the very

recent past resilience issues being reported from press offices and

police stations where they are run by civilian staff. So you can both

be right, but I do not think there is endless money. You can get some

quite controversial points being made, when you hear that the Liberal

Democrats were very against the closure of police control rooms and

the merging of police forces altogether. They have been

campaigning to keep the control rooms.

campaigning to keep the control they say it saves money and the

calls are still answered. Yes, and the advance in technology makes more

things popular remotely. It was an issue on Monday in Portlethen, it

was raised, why have you done this to Aberdeen? There is anger on the

ground, but both sides of this argument can be right, as it were.

Thank you. S head back to the chamber and pick up on that debate.

-- S head back to the chamber. Officers from the counterterrorism

unit have been deployed to carry out an operation in the Checkland

Islands about the availability of drugs in that community. In Tayside,

there was 137 officers from the festival has always run smoothly in

the past. Yes, but they welcomed the additional officers who came in.

Also, during major football games, they were delighted at the extra

police officers coming. They'd is concern in Dumfries about how

members of relocation arising from the closure

of the control them, given how remote it is from these

opportunities. What efforts have been made to address these concerns?

The chief constable was speaking to leaders of the Council, and that is

ongoing. South of the border we have seen the loss of as many officers

serve here in Scotland. What's more, we now hear that Labour is

supporting the idea of axing elected crying commissioners south of the

border, so it is clear that Scotland is leading the way. -- crying

commissioners. Last 30 seconds. We can look forward to the outstanding

police service we have in Scotland continuing. We have a 29 year low in

recorded crime. Violence has dropped by 60% and the crimes of carrying

offensive weapons in Glasgow is down by two thirds, down to the

outstanding police service, I moved the amendment in my name. Mr

Johnson, you have five minutes. I support the motion in the name of

Graeme Pearson. I will do so through my particular experience. In

listening to the minister, I was worried that he would come to the

conclusion that many a minister has come to the fore, and that is that

those of us who are concerned about the structures involved in the

provision of public service are somehow levying criticism directly

at those who provide the service. Let me make it absolutely clear that

my sympathies lie with those who provide the police service and the

Fire and rescue service, and my criticisms are directly targeted at

this government and this Minister. My experience is that police and

firemen are often too willing to volunteer their experience. As a

conservative, I can make it quite clear that when we consider the

proposals originally to streamline our Fire and rescue service and

police service, we were quite convinced that there was a case to

be made for streamlining. I will carry on at the moment, I afraid. It

was choosing that process that it became clear to us that there was no

accountability in the new proposals, and that is why I was happy to vote

against the proposals that aimed to end that process. We have seen

radical decisions taken about the closure of police counters which has

impacted in many areas across Scotland, and individuals will bring

forward their particular case. That was Alex Johnson, and you can

watch the rest of that date on the BBC Scotland website. Now, two prime

ministers questions, and David Cameron was put in spot about the

collapse of the case of a man charged with killing four soldiers

in an IRA attack in London in 1982. The questions below -- began with a

question on bankers bonuses. HSBC announced extra bonuses and a

rise... Went to many people language languish on the dole, is it not

worth listening and getting people back to work? Bank bonuses are well

down on the appalling situation left by the last Labour government, but

we need to see the proper control of all forms of pay and bonuses. I do

not want to see us focusing only on bonuses because you can claw back a

bonus, but you cannot back -- you cannot claw back pay, and we do not

want to go back to the days of Fred Goodwin where you can be paid well

for appalling performance. It is very interesting because someone who

in opposition wanted to talk as much as he could about climate change now

wants to get off the subject. Will he just said out, for his party and

for the country, his views about man-made minor change. I believe

man-made climate change is one of the most serious threats this

country and the world faces and that is why we have the world 's first

investment bank in this country. That is why, unlike 13 wasted years

of labour, we are building the first nuclear power station for 30 years

in our country. That is why we have cut carbon emissions by 14% since we

came to office. That is why we have set out, year-on-year, carbon budget

in this country. It takes people to govern effectively and deal with it.

Excellent. Excellent. We are getting somewhere. I agree with what he said

about the importance of climate change. But the reason this

matters, the reason this matters is because there are people in the most

important positions in his government going round West Dinning

climate change. The energy minister, when

climate change. The energy minister, said this, you are not going to draw

me on that. I have not had time to get into the climate change debate.

He is the energy minister, Mr Speaker, so will be prime Minister

clarify, is he happy do have deniers in his government? This is obviously

the new approach to Prime Minister questions. You can't the house and

praise the Prime Minister. This government has a solid record for

cutting carbon emissions, investing in nuclear, the biggest green

programme we have seen in our country's history and the first time

in a long time we are on track to meet our renewable targets. Perhaps

you would like to congratulate me again. Does the prime Minister

regret the depth of the hurt among victims families and the deep sense

of public outrage right across the country as the result of the outcome

of the John Downey case? He needs to understand that for an official

letter, a letter signed by an official, to drum -- to trump due

process without statutory underpinning is deeply offensive to

the public in this country. Will he now scrapped these get out of jail

free letters immediately and will he do everything in his power to

reverse the despicable decision in the Downey case so that justice can

be done for the families of the bereaved? Let me say I completely

understand the level of anger and concern that people feel across this

country about the appalling events that happened in 1982 and the fact

that the person responsible is now not going to be appropriately tried.

Of course that is absolutely shocking and our first thought

should be with those 11 soldiers and their families and friends. It may

have happened 32 years their families and friends. It may

anyone who has lost someone in that situation will mourn them today as

if it happened yesterday and we should be absolutely clear. The man

should never have received the letter that he received. It was a

dreadful mistake and a mistake which we now need to have a rapid factual

review to make sure this cannot happen again.

The Deputy Prime Minister has effectively rolled out a

head-to-head debate between him and the Deputy first Minister about

Scotland's feature. The Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg was asked about

the prospect at a news conference in London following his decision to

agree to debate Britain's future in Europe with UKIP's leader. Mr Clegg

also spelt out his opposition to independence. You cannot have your

cake and eat it. You cannot be independent and be part of a

currency union. You cannot lead -- leave the United Kingdom and it

expected be a member of Europe the next day effortlessly. You cannot

expect for everything else to carry on, bearing the liabilities of the

banks represented North of the border. Those are the fact is. Some

people may not like those back spot they are back. It is important that

at this stage we are candid about that. It is for Alex Salmond to

explain. His response so far is just bluster. I am afraid that even he

had some point will have do recognise, for instance on the

currency issue, that when the whole of the British political

establishment says it is not available to you as an option, he

cannot pretend that it is. Let's stay at Westminster and speak to our

correspondence. David, Mr Clegg was very clear there about the position

of the Westminster establishment and it looks like there will be no

debate with Nicola Sturgeon. Yes, Nick Clegg taking the opportunity of

his monthly news Nick Clegg taking the opportunity of

into the independence referendum. We have not heard that much from him

today but some of his comments were interesting and to discuss that and

some of the other issues happening here at Westminster today, I am

joined by three Scottish MPs. Angus MacNeil for the SMP, one by Labour

and from the Conservatives. Nick Clegg said today that he was not

willing to debate with Nicola Sturgeon and also said about your

party leader, as far as independent is concerned, he cannot have his

cake and eat it. The whole purpose cake is surely to eat it! I do know

what Nick Clegg is saying that is clearly Alex Salmond is coming

forward with some good ideas, manifested rational ideas, that we

know will be agreed on the 19th of September. Whatever Clegg is saying

now, it is just straw in the wind. What he is saying our world changed

in the future, as we saw with tuition fees. All I can say about

Nick Clegg is that I had with intervention has been as usable as

George Osborne, as I have had people come to me absolutely livid about

his comments and it is helping us with the Yes campaign. The more

nonsense from Clegg and Osborne, the better, for Scotland. Without

turning this into a Scottish version of the great bake off, what he was

eventually saying was that Alex Hammond is saying we will have this

part but not that part and that we will keep the pound, that kind of

thing. If the whole question of currency resonating with voters, do

you think? I think there is an increasing question about Alex

Salmond being a man without a plan for the reasons you suggested. He

increased the new says he wants to keep parts of the UK system which he

likes, but keep parts of the UK system which he

the bits that he does not like. If you are

the bits that he does not like. If pull and share your resources for

the common good together. That has or has been the Labour vision of the

United Kingdom and that is the positive message the Labour Party

will continue to take to the people of Scotland. There are increasing

questions for him to answer on that point. From the coalition 's point

of view, what your party leader was indicating if that you are either in

or out? The UK has built up a lot of institutions over the years and I

have as many people in Scotland telling me they are angry about the

participation in these, and I'm the deputy leader of the Liberal

Democrats. I am very happy to debate with Nicola Sturgeon if she wants

to. So you would be happy to debate with Nicola Sturgeon? You don't

think the party leadership? No, this is for the part -- the people of

Scotland, and those who have about should be involved. I have a vote

and people are angry that the SNP are selling false perspectives. They

have sold them things which are not under their control. It is economic

and practical political reality. The rest of the United Kingdom is not

going to let Scotland take a piece of the action on its own terms. It

will be a negotiation and the negotiation will be nine to one and

lots of things that we hold precious now will disappear for ever full.

Angus MacNeil, you have had a challenge to your party that Sir

Malcolm Bruce will debate with Nicola Sturgeon, but also saying

that you have essentially to abide by the economic realities. If

Scotland becomes independent, it will be out on its own? Absolutely

not. We have no country like that anywhere. We have people wanting a

Stirling Central bank to conclude the Channel Islands and the Isle of

Man. Manifestly that make sense. The criticism from my two opponents here

is that we want to take the good bits and leave the bad bits. Yes,

good idea. Why not do that. Keep the good bits because what we are really

doing is moving power in Westminster to Holyrood. We are moving power to

the most democratic forum... Hold on, you have had your sable is. We

are moving power from Westminster to the democratic forum representing

the people. The best people to make decisions for Scotland are the

Scottish. There are now as many independent countries in Europe as

they were in the world 100 years ago. Nobody has given up their

independence to come back to London. That is nonsense. The minute

Scotland becomes independent, we will joke that if we were

independent, only 16% would give up to -- good rate to give that up. I

think he is grasping at straws. The situation in the White Paper was

very clear. People like a number of things about the UK, including the

currency. What has become clear in the past few weeks is that if you

like those things, you must stay in the United Kingdom. Scots want

clarity in this debate and we are getting some clarity in this debate.

Over the next few months, in the run-up to the final decision, that

clarity will become ever more apparent. The point here is we have

countries using Sterling who are not in the UK. In 1942, there were lots

of countries... I think Angus has lost the plot. The SMP said there

would be a currency agreement throughout the I did kingdom. What

everyone else is saying is that it will not work. For Scotland

everyone else is saying is that it rest of the United Kingdom will not

allow their budget to be vetoed by Scotland. Zimbabwe uses the dollar,

but it does not give it much freedom in its political activity. You are

not surely drawing comparisons between Zimbabwe and an independent

Scotland? I am only referring to a country which chooses to use another

country's currency. Where will it raise funds if it has no credit

rating, no central bank? I think we will have to leave it there. This is

a topic we will return to, but thank you all very much for joining me. I

know you must head back to the House of Commons now for an important

vote, so thank you for joining us. Andrew, I think a flavour of the

debate there. The weather may be improving but the positions are

still witty wildly entrenched. One final question on a subject touched

on in Prime Minister 's questions. The collapse of the case against a

suspect in the Hyde Park bombing. The Northern Ireland first Minister

says he will resign unless there is a judicial enquiry into this. Yes,

this is a developing story says the revelations yesterday which has

caused a great deal of anger on both sides of the water. The first

Minister of Northern Ireland, Peter Robinson, is meeting the Northern

Ireland Secretary this afternoon. He is very angry at a number of

letters, more than 200, were issued to suspected people within the IRA

are basically saying that they would not suffer any threat of prosecution

in the future and it was that letter which caused the court case against

John Downey to collapse yesterday. It is a very difficult case for the

UK government, for politicians in Northern Ireland as well, and it was

noticeable in PMQ is that the Prime Minister said what had happened was

dreadful but he did not go as far as saying that in any way he wanted to

tear up those letters that had been issued or anything like that. What I

think the Northern Ireland Secretary will have to do this afternoon is

give Peter Robinson at least enough to say that there is going to be an

enquiry into this. Everyone here at Westminster knows that the strike is

on this are really high. -- the stakes on this are really high. A

number of Cabinet backbenchers are saying that if these letters have

been given to suspected members of the IRA in the past, what about the

British paratroopers from the bloody Sunday massacre who could be facing

prosecution, should they not be getting such letters as well, which

tells them they will not be threatened with prosecution? It is a

very difficult case for everyone and one I think will develop throughout

the day and evening. Thank you very much for that update. Let us pick up

with a commentator. You mentioned you were at an event today, the

Church of Scotland speaking about the discussions they have been

having with people about independence, and it sounds a bit

counterintuitive but it needs to go beyond the financial side of things.

What did they say? There is a fundamental message that was

highlighted by the debate on College Green. You saw two completely

different polls of opinion and I think that what the church is

getting at is the need for a national debate now and on the 19th

of September. It is continuity about what they were doing today, and it

was actually quite impressive. Notion that we have to get to grips

with debate and keep debate at a civilised level, and the big point

will come on the 19th of September, the day after the referendum because

someone will have lost. We will have to be reconciled at that moment and

I thought that was an interesting aspect of what was being talked

about and it seems appropriate for the church to look at that. There

were representatives from the SNP and the Conservatives, did that come

across that there would be some sort of reconciliation? I would not go

that far! What was interesting was that they had been selected because

they had things in common, they could agree, Baroness Golding made

the point that she was in favour of trade Unions. She was talking about

a measure of social justice and they were carefully select it, --

selected, so there was a unity, if you like. It was interesting to see

four women on the panel, which was referred to. Let us pick up on the

big issue of the week, the big story. You were in Aberdeen for the

Cabinet 's meeting, they were almost like the Jacobite army and the

government army meeting at different points in the city. What was the

atmosphere like? They were kept apart. I thought it was a very

interesting event generally. I thought there was no question that

the UK government lost the day's battle. The front cover of the daily

record the next day told us that. The headline said, go home and think

again. This is a strategy that is going on, which is putting out

messages about the instability of the economy in the event of a vote

for an independent Scotland, that is the long-term message they were

playing. They lost that battle but the important thing for them is that

they win the war. It was interesting watching Alex Salmond hosting for

photographs with David Cameron, and meeting members of the public. Do

you think that seeds have been planted in peoples minds that hope

will be cultivated? Catch that they hope will be cultivated? The Better

Together campaign have to get closer to the community. We have to leave

it there. Thank you very much for joining us. That is all we have time

for. We are back at the same time next week. Thank you for your

company. From all of us on the team, thank you for joining us, by for

now. -- bye-bye. in the churned battlefields

of Flanders and Northern France. Four British platoons are making

their way through the mud. Each stops at a mass grave

and digs up one body.