28/09/2011 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

programme this afternoon: Five religious groups go to

Holyrood calling for same-sex marriage to be allowed. As the

Treasury minister arrived in Edinburgh, he faced tough questions

on tax in the Scotland Bill. Are these proposals in danger of being

left high and dry? And as new figures indicate one in ten adults

is on anti-depressants, the Scottish Government sets out how

it's dealing with mental health. And here at the Labour party

conference in Liverpool, delegates have been digesting Ed Miliband's

leader's speech and what it means for the party. We will be doing the

same. More on that later. Five religious groups have called for

the introduction of same-sex marriage in Scotland.

Representatives are at Holyrood today arguing that they should be

allowed to preside over same sex ceremonies. But senior Catholic

figures have urged the Scottish Government not to change the law.

Here's our correspondent, Raymond Buchanan.

They had the car, the outfits, they also received many of the same

rights and responsibilities as a married couple. But when Neil and

John are tied the knot, they didn't get married. The law in Scotland

doesn't allow that. At half-time when abnormal couple would sign the

register, we went to a registry office and do the signing there, so

the legal part was done outside the church but to allow guests, it was

the same as a regular wedding. it wasn't a marriage and that's

what this group want to change. Leaders of some of Scotland's

smaller religious communities gave their support for a change in the

law. What matters in a marriage is law, love, integrity. It doesn't

matter if it's a same-sex couple or mixed-sex couples. Wherever a

particular group in society have been told, you are equal but

separate, different, we need a different terminology for you, that

kind of arrangement is inherently prejudicial. The whole point of

today is to try to balance the views which are expressed by

amongst others the Roman Catholic Church who insist marriage is

between a man and a woman. The Church of Scotland's view is less

clear that they intend to meet with ministers before they responded to

the Scottish Government's consultation on the issue. But

supporters of same-sex marriage insist they wouldn't force other

churches to conduct ceremonies but that is unlikely to persuade

critics who insist the whole concept is morally wrong.

For some political reaction to this let's join Patrick Harvie MSP, Co

convenor of the Green Party in the Holyrood Garden Lobby. Thank you

for joining me. Your by yourself this afternoon, I'm afraid. We

couldn't get anybody from the SNP to speak about same-sex marriage.

Why are these proposals important and necessary to go forward from

civil partnerships? What difference would same-sex marriage be to the

law already? I have to admit, I used to wonder that but I'm not to

their relationship and I'm not religious, so to me, personally,

these words don't carry a huge amount of weight, but we have to

acknowledge, too many people, they do. They are profoundly significant,

and what is also clear is that some people continue to use the

distinction between marriage and civil partnership as a kind of

proxy for saying that same-sex relationships are just not as good,

not as worthwhile, not as deserving of recognition from society. Those

are the reasons why people feel strongly that this change is

overdue. And why it should happen. I'm pleased to say, there is a good

degree of political consensus at least from the leadership to the

main political parties and those in at Holyrood. We have been hearing

from the five religious group obviously, you can understand the

sensitivities of the bigger faith groups, like the Roman Catholic

Church, are lobbying the skid to to being forced into it performing

same-sex marriage ceremonies in their churches. What would you say

to them? I have not heard for individual people all religious

places to be compelled to conduct any particular marriage if they

think it's not in keeping with their own face and tradition. What

is very clear, particularly the Catholic Church have been very

vocal on this, is that there are religious groups who feel very

strongly that it is in keeping with their conscience not only to

conduct same-sex marriage, but it's difficult for them to sway with

their conscience the requirement to turn a same-sex couples away. If

you accept the fact Parliament should not intervene in a religious

matter, and I don't think it should, we have got a situation where the

law allows different religious groups to reach their own view and

it to act according to the contras. Thank you very much for that. --

conference. -- conscience. And joining me now is the Scotsman's

and Scotland on Sunday's political editor, Eddie Barnes. He's our

political commentator for the afternoon. Good afternoon, Eddie.

Do you think Alex Salmond is preparing for a firestorm around

this issue as we saw in section 28 many years ago. I don't think we

are heading for another section 28. I think he has some difficulties.

He has MSPs in his own group who say they would rather this did not

come in. He has the SNP largest donor who has made his own views

clear on this in the past for the you get the impression that we are

heading towards that section 20 its scenario, and I think that is

partly because of the fact bearers cross-party unanimity in favour of

this move -- there is cross-party. England are pushing ahead with this

as well. Whilst there Clare objections from the Roman Catholic

Church, whether we get that level of debate and ferocity we got 10

years ago, I just don't get the sense that is happening. Stay there,

we will be back with you shortly. So, Ed Miliband made his pitch to

voters in his conference speech yesterday and today he's having to

defend himself that he's anti- business. Let's get some more

reaction now from Liverpool. Our Westminster correspondent David

Porter is standing by. Andrew, thank you. Behind me, it's

a very busy Conference Centre this afternoon. Ed Miliband just walked

past me a few moments ago. He has got a question and answer session

with delegates this afternoon but yesterday, it was his big speech,

his keynote speech of the conference, where he laid out his

philosophy and where he wants to take the Labour Party. We will

discuss that in more detail with Douglas Alexander the Shire Oak --

shadow Foreign Secretary. Now a chance to recap on the week so far.

Liverpool, a city proud of its history and heritage, built on

trade and industry. Famous for its three graces. Belied the building,

the Cunard Building, and the Port of Liverpool building, each

testimony to Liverpools seafaring tradition. This week there is an

addition. Liverpool also note -- now has Ed Miliband and Ed Balls

who will play a major part in charting the party's course in the

next few years. It's the job of Ed Balls to sketch out economic policy.

This is not, as the Conservatives claimed, simply a crisis a public

debt which can be solved country- by-country through austerity cuts

and retrenchment, but truly a global growth crisis which is

deepening and darkening by the day. Of for Ed Miliband, one year into

the job as leader, his task is to articulate who he is and where he

wants to take the party. You need to know there is an alternative.

You need to know it is credible. So people need to know where I stand.

The Labour Party lost trust on the economy. I am determined we restore

your trust in us on the economy. Despite the traditional eve-of-

conference Scots night, Scotland has not featured greatly in this

conference balls-up Labour is still at Litton its wounds after May's

dropping in the Holyrood elections. The outgoing leader in Scotland is

keen to it to the future. I didn't stand down immediately to give the

Labour Party time to consider what could happen and what we had to do

to move forward. We have used the time usefully and made changes in

the way we organise ourselves and my successor will be the take the

Scottish Liberal scored from a strong platform. Others don't

underestimate the task ahead in Scotland. We are getting into a

position, ready to fight about the economy, tuition fees in Scotland,

and will soon have but a new leader of the Scottish Labour Party.

have to accept we did badly in that election and we had to look at why

that happened. We have to look at the way be than the campaign

carefully and re-engage with people in Scotland so we can earn their

support again. Here in Liverpool, politics tends to go in cycles.

Sometimes you have got to go down before you can go up.

I can tell you that wheel is a lot bigger when you are actually close

to it, which is why you saw shots of it, not as looking down from it.

I'm joined now by Douglas Alexander, Scottish MPs. We got something from

Ed Miliband yesterday about who he is and where he wants to take the

Labour Party. A lot of interest in the economics staff. What is a

predator company? A company that engages in practices which has long

term harm to the British economy. He cited the Southern Cross, a

company which has left many older people worried about the stability

of the care arrangements they put in place. I think many people felt

they had been companies in recent years that simply have not been

playing by the rules. And to put the interests above the broader

interests of the broader system and the economy. No longer like in a

certain parts of the economy, certain companies, which you don't

think are doing their job they are doing. Does this mean in New Labour

is dead? No, it's not so much individual companies but business

practices. You can have companies are deeply damaging both to

themselves and to the broader economy and I'm afraid that's what

we saw what banks based in Scotland as well as across the UK in the

banking crisis. In that sense, he was very clear. It was not an anti-

business beach but an anti- business as usual speech. It's an

important distinction -- speech. Let's move on to Scotland. You know

how badly the party did in May. What as the party got to do to

recover with the Scottish electorate? We have a range of

tasks because we did a bad beating back in May. Only one in eight

Scots gave his support and their vote. That is why the work carried

forward by the organisational review is important. We also need

to be cleared but it's about articulating more clearly what is

Scottish Labour's defining political purpose. I believe it is

to build a better Scottish nation, defined not by a time this

commitment to social justice, but also a country proud of itself and

its place in the world. For more than 100 years, we have stood up

for home rule within the United Kingdom and a society based on

solidarity. I think that is what Scotland once and I believe

Scottish Labour has to deliver in the years ahead. Are you frustrated

that perhaps so far you feel your Labour colleagues in Scotland

perhaps haven't got the depth of the crisis the party is facing?

think most of us realise the difficult of the problem we are

facing. It was natural conversation about party processes gives way to

a broader and more fundamental political conversation at in a

speech I will be making a couple of weeks. Then I will make my

contribution to the task we all face, winning a political argument

about who is best to build that better Scottish nation. The SNP

claim they can build a better nation. Personally, I've never been

convinced we need to be a separate nation to be a better nation.

Actually, that is the weakest part of their argument. I'm afraid we

have to leave it there. We have a taste of what Douglas Alexander

will be saying in a couple of weeks' time. We will come back

later. David, we will be back with you

shortly. Let's pick up on some of those points with our political

commentator, Eddie Barnes. To pick up a. Douglas Alexander made about

Ed Miliband not being anti-business. We have moved on, things are

different now for the best to you think that is credible? I thought

he did a good job of laying out his analysis of where the country is. I

think he did a good job in saying this is not just about the new

Labour verses Old Labour arguments. He was confronting modern-day

issues about the lack of confidence people have in the economy, the

rioting in society and so on. The problem he still has is the

analysis may be right but do people see him as the leader they want to

take forward and change things? He simply has not done that yet balls-

up we will be picking up on that later on. Thank you for that. The

UK government has been facing tough questions on the Scotland Bill at

Holyrood. The Treasury minister David Gauke was grilled by SNP MSPs

yesterday about whether the bill's proposed 10p income tax power would

be damaging to Scotland's finances. The SNP calculate it could leave

Scotland with an �8 billion black hole. What this proposal suggests

is that you are taking away some of the block grant based on a basket

of taxes, and replacing it with one tax. With his income tax. Now, all

the calculations show income tax grows more slowly than others. For

example, the IMF showed since 1965 in the UK, income tax is grown up

0.9% but all taxes are grown at 6.5%. The reason is some volatile

taxes like all revenues, are very volatile all the way. They have

risen by eight times since 1995, for example. That accounts for 43%,

so you are take me away those very buoyant taxes, from our share of

the block grant and replacing it with income tax, which grows very

slowly. I'm not sure quite why that is fair and wide gives the Scottish

parliament more responsibility for the money raised here? I think,

with respect, have got to come back to the point about the block grant.

It is cut played for Scotland on the basis of the Barnett formula. -

- it is calculated for Scotland. is based on it tax, including

Scotland's from oil and whisky etc. I don't think it is based on tax.

It is based on the UK revenue for the we get a share of the UK

revenue through the block grant. Yes, and you will do in future.

Sadly, I wish it was the case that there was a strong link in the UK

public finances between revenue and expenditure but in recent years,

but has not been the case, and that is a problem we face. The block

grant is based on a spending formula. But there is a mechanism

to the block grant where you say the proposal you are putting

forward, there is a lot of uncertainty. That was the word that

you used. Sorry, can I make one point. A couple of years ago, we

saw tax receipts fall dramatically. That didn't automatically feed

through to a reduction in the Scottish block grant. The Scottish

block grant has been cut this year. But it didn't automatically feed.

If you ask anybody in Scotland, they will tell you money has been

cut this year for the it's a slightly different thing. Moving on,

over time, given that we are using income tax, which grows most slowly

than the other in comes which make up the block grant, the Scottish

government calculated that, starting with 1999 as a starting

point, we would lose �8 billion because income tax grows more

slowly. It's a deflationary effect of this scheme. I know the UK

government dispute this. In the letter you left for us today,

coming into the committee meeting, you talk about your methodology,

which came up with a different conclusion from the Scottish

government. You didn't take one year. The Scottish government look

at how the 10 years after 1999 would be affected if the Scotland

Bill had been in place. But the UK government has taken a hypothetical

scenario. Could you just explain that? You say you were not using a

real year, but an average, and coming up with a conclusion that we

would be no worse off. I have a copy in front of me. We work very

closely together. You will be able to explain the methodology them.

The difficulty with a Scottish government's methodology, it

exactly as you describe it. Joining me now are two members of the

Scotland Bill Committee. The SNP MSP Joan McAlpine and the Scottish

Lib Dem leader Willie Rennie. Good afternoon to you both. Thank you

for joining me. We wish you and your arguments there, saying this

had a deflationary effect, warning about the �8 billion black hole.

Are you convinced, in fact, it could be the opposite effect,

revenue neutral originally and the tax date could go up? It means for

the first year, after that, we do know what's happening. All we know

is the Scottish government economist, not politicians, looked

at the figures from 1999 for 10 years ahead of that and came up

with the figure of �8 billion. As I explained, that's because you are

replacing a basket of taxes, which is what the block grant is based on

with income tax, which grows more slowly than oil revenue and Excise.

Naturally, it will have a deflationary effect. What is a

significant is that the Scottish government figures looked over 10

years, a period of boom and bust, and we still lost �8 billion. As I

understand, the UK government are disputing that but when Michael

Moore appeared before the Scotland Bill committee in February, he said

that it would cost us six and �91 million, still a lot of money.

Which ever way you look at it, whatever conclusions you may, there

is a deflationary effect -- �691 million. This is an odd piece of

legislation, the Scotland Bill. The Conservatives are not keen on it.

You set out your proposals for your commission which you hope Lord

Steel will chair the Scotland Bill is a little thing no one wants,

isn't it? It's the most substantial transfer of financial powers to the

Scottish parliament in 300 years. A massive chance there to give the

Scottish parliament great responsibility over its own

finances for that of course there will be fluctuations and that comes

with a certain degree of risk and that's why there are litigation

tools in place to make sure the Scottish parliament can cope with

that. We can't have more responsibility and expect there to

be no risk whatsoever. There are ups and downs and the UK government

figures show a surplus of up to 2014 of the boat to �0.2 billion.

It depends how you calculate. -- of �2.2 billion. This is about the

parliament giving responsibility and for an SNP, it's one step on

the road to independence, which are you would welcome so will you

support the Scotland Bill in its present form and will you vote for

it in Westminster? The SNP are asking for a change in the Bill so

we have a joint commencement order. The way it is drafted at the moment,

HM Treasury decide when these financial provisions are going to

come in. Contrary to what he has said, it has not been explained

exactly how the mechanism for cutting block grants will work.

Many senior economists have pointed out the flaws in this Bill. We need

to have a joint commencement order so we are willing to talk and we

can work something out. The SNP are not going to pass a bit of

legislation that's going to leave the Scottish people worse off. And

leave the public services short of money. It's about responsibility

but it was really about responsibility, we would be left to

raise all our own taxes. Not just one tax. Income tax grows much more

slowly. What will the socks -- Scottish secretary do? Will he end

up pushing it through? They showed a willingness of constructive

engagement to try to work through these quite complicated issues to

make sure the right decisions are made but what Jona avoided

completely was her willingness to accept this is a massive transfer

of power and their idle threats to thwart this Bill, which is the most

substantial transfer of power in 300 years, count as what they claim,

more powers to the Scottish parliament. I think they need to be

more mature. Thank you very much for joining me. Joining me once

again is our political commentator Eddie Barnes. You were listening to

that argument there. Do you think the Scottish government had a point

that this is actually quite a dangerous proposition and could

leave Scotland a lot worse off. mean, as Joan McAlpine said, there

are economists are out there who are worrying about a deflationary

bias and so on. It does depend rather on whether we're in a period

of recession or boom up. Then, it would rise and income tax would

rise quite so high. If in a public sector restraint, income tax would

go higher and the UK government suggests therefore it would be

better off. These are terribly complex arguments. We are purely

focusing on process is at the moment. I think it would be

interesting for those of us watching this to see what exactly

the parties intend to do with all these powers. Eddie, thank you very

One more election now on Ed Miliband's speech. Earlier we heard

from Douglas Alexander. Now to Liverpool and our Westminster

correspondent. Thank you. It is a busy day here at

the conference. It was a very busy day yesterday when we had Ed

Miliband's leadership speech, regarded by many delegates here

probably as the keynote and high night address of the week. --

highlight. What did Scottish delegates thing? I have three here.

Stephen Donnelly, let me start by asking you, do you think you know

more now following that speech yesterday about where Ed Miliband

wants to take the Labour Party? what is that direction? I do. The

speech that out a clear path fault on which we can build a future

manifesto to win the next general election. -- clear Platt for. It

was about furnace from the top and bottom and creating an economy by -

- based on a better bargain. People knew he was that go before but now

there is a copper -- core feeling. What about the reference to

predator companies? What do you think your leader was getting at?

They are companies that prey on the consumer and do not come to be back

to the people. Is that a message that you think is going to go down

well with Labour supporters? but I don't think that is what Ed

wants or what the Labour Party is moving towards. I think we are

moving towards that if we are in government then companies will be

more responsible and there will be more clearer guidance. Were you

surprised that Scotland did not get a mention, apart from a verbal

thumping of Fred Goodwin? Scotland wasn't mentioned by name, but his -

- he spoke about messages that are relevant. Youth unemployment,

getting jobs for young people and opportunities. If that is not

relevant to Scotland than I do not know what is Foster up but it is

strange, considering what happened to a party in May's elections.

leader of the UK party did not feel he had to mention it in some way,

even to try to say we did badly and we have to be built. He has been

saying that for a long time and so has every Scottish MP at

Westminster. The message is carried across the whole of the UK

regardless of whether it is Scotland, England or Wales. Still

the opinion polls are not good for a party. You would think at the

moment with what has happened in the economy your party would be

ahead of the polls, and yet you're behind. We are at the moment but

there is a lot of trouble going on at the moment. People do not

understand the situation. I think after the conference and see what

the other parties have to say, people will see a Labour are more

aggressive and they will secure jobs. If you have the chance to ask

a question to the leader, what would it be? It would be, what

would he do in government to advance a living wage up and down

the country? Would the NHS privatise it? -- be prioritise to.

An indication of the questions that our guests would ask. We were known

a few hours whether people are going to asking those questions. --

we will know. More than one in 10 adults are on

anti-depressants in Scotland, according to official figures that

show a continuing annual increase in the use of such drugs. This

prompted concern from opposition politicians. At Holyrood the

Government is setting out how it is thinking and our mental health

services should operate. It has We are also met our target of 50%

of all frontline staff who would receive appropriate suicide

awareness training. We know that people with mental illness tend to

die younger and generally from physical health conditions such as

heart disease and diabetes. The work that we have taken forward to

improve physical health of people with physical illnesses has

resulted in patients receiving regular health checks, in

developing healthy life styles and tackling issues such as smoking and

diet. This will continue to be part of our work in delivering this and

supporting patients' safety. As the first government to establish Tim

Winter as a national priority, we publish Scotland's demand a

strategy -- established dimension. What is being taken forward with

health boards, local government and organisations such as Alzheimer's

Scotland. We have exceeded our target for people with dementia

being properly recorded. Diagnosis leads to better information and

support, medication and physical health checks. We are looking at

how we can improve and enhance post diagnostic support, learning from

the pilots would have concluded and how we can offer this service in a

way which meets the needs of people with dementia and their carers.

I ask, I welcome the demerger strategy, but what I'm not seeing

is the commitment to training -- of the dementia strategy. And staff

awareness of dementia. We are continuing to progress the dementia

strategy. We have an annual report that was published this year and

there will be a further annual report. We will deal to check what

progress has been made in these areas. We will continue to focus on

two Change areas providing excellent support and information

to people with the merger and their carers after diagnosis -- people

with dementia. I can report that many organisations have been

assisting in taking this forward. We identify broad areas of activity

where we believe we can have an impact on outcomes. Where the focus

is as -- is on target objectives, we believe the work will have

broader benefit in integrating services and producing change. I

have already mentioned work in two areas of the sex City, suicide

reduction and dementia. We have already committed to meeting our

target to faster access to mental health services by delivering the

18 week referral to treatment for psychological therapies across all

age group, from 20th December 14. - - from 20th December 14. It has

involved significant efforts to work out how a complex system

operates. We must remember that the work on access to psychological

therapies is just one part of creating a well functioning mental

health system. We will offer access to information and advice, self

help approaches, some of which will be outlined online or through NHS

24, through counselling and access to low-intensity treatments,

including exercise for those who may be experiencing particular

psychological distress. We also propose to look further at

structuring services for people with severe and enduring mental

health problems. During the last Parliament we undertook work to

reduce remissions and outperformed our targets significantly. We

looked at crisis and first contact services. During the next period we

propose a more structured examination of first contact a

crisis and in-patient services to develop recommendations for service

redesign. We will become better at benchmarking information and we

have experienced and expertise in local service. It is time to

capitalise on that information that we have and to develop our

understanding of to improve services more effectively.

That is the public health minister laying out the strategy. Joining me

now is the SNP MSP John Wilson who's taking part in today's

parliamentary debate and Labour's health spokesperson, Jackie Baillie

MSP Jackie Baillie,. We are picking out that one in 12 adults are

thought to be on anti-depressants. How concerning is this? Extremely

concerning. The figures are demonstrating a substantial rise

over the last year. Medication may be helpful for some experience

depression, but we have argued that access to psychological therapies,

in many cases, is what is important. For GPs, they sometimes do not have

the opportunity to axis that at the local level. We need to ensure

there is an increase to psychological therapies. We need to

be quite concerned about the increase in prescribing, not least

because it signals overall an increase in the number of people

experiencing mental health problems in Scotland. The Conservatives call

the mental health services a Cinderella service, and when you

were in power, and now with SNP in power, it remains a Cinderella

service. There are not the service is available for people to access.

I think you'll find that both governments, Labour, the Lib Dems

and subsequently SNP have made great strides in trying to deal

with the issue of mental health. They haven't experienced the

increases in funding enjoyed by other parts of the Health Service.

We now have a position where there is increasing demand. The numbers

of people experiencing mental health problems is going up. What

we eyewitnesses say... What will win this thing is cuts dividend Ziv

services and also in our hospitals, reductions in in-patient beds that

is leading to some mental health professionals concerned that their

system is reaching crisis point. But is what we need to address. The

Mental Health Strategy is welcome but we would like to see it more

comprehensive, to look at mental health not just in the concept of

the Health Service but through the course of somebody's life. Are we

at crisis point? Leather-clad and the SNP have dropped their targets

when it comes to cutting the use of anti-depressants -- Labour claimed.

Why have you drop your targets? are at this stage because there has

been added defied by a number of people, mental-health is seen as a

Cinderella service -- it has been identified. And it has been for a

number of years. More and more people, because of what is

happening in society more widely, are finding themselves more

stressed and looking for support. The difficulty is, they turn to

their GPs and many GPs are not equipped to actually deal with

mental health issues they are faced with. Unfortunately many rely on

prescribing drugs to try to treat initially these conditions and we

need to look at a comprehensive approach in terms of delivering

mental health services, involving local authorities, and despite the

accusation that Jackie Baillie has made about local authorities

cutting local services, clearly there are a number of organisations

out there, working in the field, voluntary sector organisations, and

a wide range of mental health organisations who are working

together to ensure we get Collette delivery of services. You printed

out the problem that GPs give other drugs. What warm words do you have?

It is about consultation and getting the message out there about

what people require. That is working together. It is a range of

services, coming together. We need to have that co-ordinated in a way

that brings together all those services to ensure that people

receive the treatment and distance of up that is needed. It is not

always necessary for somebody who presents in initial stages with a

mental health condition to go on to medication, and maybe other

activities are being signposted that could deal with the issues

more adequately rather than looking at prescription drugs. If that is

the point of the strategy, how difficult is it to do that, Jacqui

Smith? It didn't happen when you were in power. We did start on the

road when Labour was in power. I think successive governments have

tried to improve the situation. We need to recognise the numbers are

rising. We have anti-depressant but grabbing going up, children still

in adult mental health boards which is entirely inappropriate. We have

witnessed on the ground, this isn't a sense his accusation. It is fact.

There are projects on the ground that provide preventative care to

mental health patients and their having the resources cut. We are

actually adding up to a recipe for further crisis and I do think that

there should be amongst the parties in the parliament a will to make

this work more effectively. We welcome the consultation but it

needs to do much more than it currently says on the tin. Thank

you, Jackie Baillie and John Wilson. Final thoughts now on politics in

Scotland and the rest of the UK before our coverage draws to a

close. An interesting story developed this afternoon about the

Tory leadership contest. We had Lord Forsyth, Michael Forsyth,

saying that Murdo Fraser's plans to ditch the name in Scotland would be

a great political error. Murdo Fraser has said people should avoid

negative campaigning and temper the language. He has, with a

characteristically forthright comment. It chose to the level of

feeling in this campaign, which has really become a fight for the

definition of the party. I think Murdo Fraser's camp is, there is a

concern now about the way this has been received if we are allowed to

believe what we are reading. David Porter is in Liverpool for us. What

kind of conference has this been before Liverpool? And for Labour?

And it moves forward for the Tories next week. As far as Labour are

concerned in Liverpool, they feel more settled than they did this

time last year, when of course they were just getting ready to get to

terms with the defeat they suffered in the general election. Now Ed

Miliband has been place for a year he has tried to articulate a

picture of who the is and what he stands for. You're right, this

conference backs up tomorrow and the party conference caravan moves

to the east, to Manchester. The Conservatives. They are concerned

that the dominant issue is going to be the economy and the problems

with the economy and what can be done to try to get it back on

course. As far as Scottish Conservatives are concerned, what

you have been talking about, fighting for the soul of the party

at the way it goes forward. Interestingly on the first major

day of the Tory party conference, we will have all four candidates

appearing at a Scottish French. That will be interesting for the

How much will David Cameron try to pick up in Manchester on what Ed

Miliband has been saying about the new economy, a new society? Will he

take it on board? Absolutely. The language Ed Miliband used this week,

the something for nothing culture, criticisms about the way the

bankers have been going, Barbro much going to be similar themes

that David Cameron will pick up one. -- are very much. His David Cameron

going to come forward and put these points forward while looking like a

leader? All the evidence at the moment shows that the public sees

him as a leader and they did not see Ed Miliband as a leader. That

is a big thing for Ed Miliband. How will he work on that? He has four

years to persuade people that he could be a Prime Minister. They

give a much to all our guests. -- thing to grow much Foster will back

up the earlier time of 2pm next week and of course we will have