29/03/2017 Politics Scotland

Hello and welcome to Politics Scotland.

The letter has been delivered, Article 50 has been formally

triggered and Britain is on course to leave the European Union after 44

years of membership. Over the next hour we'll bring

you reaction from Brussels, Northern Ireland is deadlocked, the

Welsh are alienated. Scotland is going for a referendum. The English

are split down the middle. As the Prime Minister considered, in terms

of invoking Article 50, that now is not the time?

And here at Westminster, now the deed has been done

and the letter sent, exactly how will the divorce be handled?

Britain has delivered the letter formally

notifying the European Union that it is leaving after 44

Expires the starting gun for two years of negotiations to work out

future relations between the two. -- it fires the starting gun.

With me in the studio all afternoon is the political commentator

Whichever way you look at it, it is a huge day? A huge day, there is a

sense that even those of us that have been following this really

closely for nine months, it was somehow unreal, this was not going

to happen, something would get in the way. But this is it, it is now

real, the letter has been delivered, the UK is leaving the European Union

and it means huge changes across the board. Now negotiations can begin.

There are a lot of things to negotiate about. There is not much

time and really big stakes here as Hollywood reminded us yesterday.

Exactly. If you look back over the history of the EU and how long it

takes to negotiate even the smallest treaty, you think about all of the

areas in which the UK and the EU are inextricably bound up, trade,

defence, financial services, all sorts of things. All of this has to

be done and the UK has to be extricated from all of those

different strands within the next two years, and all of the other

member states have do have a vote on it. It is a massive task for all

involved. Triggering Article 50, it is that moment when Brexit myth and

claim, and Brexit reality really collide. Has the UK Government, from

what you can see, got a credible plan to make a success of this? The

UK Government has a plan. Whether it is credible, we will see over the

next few months. The plan is very simply to get the best deal that

they possibly can for the UK. They want to get as much access to the

single market, they want to get as much free trade as they can. At the

same time, not paying any money, or as little money as they counter the

EU and walking away with as good a deal as they can get. On the other

side, you have the EU, which is clear that it cannot give the UK a

better deal outside the EU than could get inside. So, it is going to

be fraught. Yes, the UK has a plan. But I think we will only know in 6-9

months whether even the chance has a plan -- a plan has a chance of

success. Just less than two hours ago,

the Prime Minister stood up in the Commons and formally

triggered Article 50. Here's just a flavour

of what happened. Today, the government acts on the

democratic will of the British people. It acts too on the clear and

convincing position of this house. A few minutes ago, in Brussels, the

United Kingdom 's permanent representative to the EU handed a

letter to the President of the European Council on my behalf,

confirming the Government's decision to invoke Article 50 of the Treaty

on the European Union. The Article 50 process is now under way. In

accordance with the wishes of the British people, the United Kingdom

is leaving the European Union. This is an historic moment from which

there can be no turning back. Today, we embark on the country's most

important negotiations in modern times. The British people made the

decision to leave the European Union and Labour respect that decision.

The next steps along this journey are the most crucial. If the Prime

Minister is to unite the country, as she says she aims to do, the

Government needs to listen, consult and represent the whole country, not

just the hardline Tory ideologues on her own benches. Britain is going to

change as a result of leaving the European Union. The question is,

how? Last year, Mr Speaker, I have raised repeatedly in this chamber

the Prime Minister made a commitment to a UK wide approach, an agreement

with the governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Since

then, the Scottish Government has published a compromise suggestion.

At its heart, a differentiated plant that could satisfy people in

Scotland and the rest of the UK. -- plan. The Prime Minister could have

said, the Prime Minister could have said that she would try it, try to

seek an agreement with European partners on the plan which could

have protected Scotland's place in the European market, but she didn't.

Article 50 was triggered in Brussels in the form of a letter written by

Theresa May and delivered by the UK Government's ambassador in Brussels,

Sir Tim Barrow. Shortly after receiving it, the President of the

European Council, Donald Tusk, made this statement. So, here it is. Six

pages. The notification from Prime Minister Theresa May, triggering

Article 50. Formerly starting the negotiations of the United Kingdom's

withdrawal from the European Union. There is no reason to pretend that

this is a happy day, neither in Brussels or in London. After all,

most Europeans, including almost half the British voters, wish that

we would stay together, not drift apart. For me, I will not pretend

that I am happy today. But, paradoxically, there is also

something positive in Brexit. Brexit has made us, the community of 27,

more determined and more united than before. Lets talk to our Westminster

correspondent David Porter. So, we heard from Theresa May, right across

the UK, people on both sides of the Brexit debate, to unite in this

great national effort, as she put it, to make Brexit a success. What

did you make of what she said? I think a lot of it was expected. This

is a copy of the letter that she sent to Brussels, to Donald Tusk, as

we have just been hearing. I think she was treading a fine line in a

statement. She was saying that nothing is going to be the same

again, from today all of the rhetoric we have heard over the last

nine months, the High Court, the actions, the Supreme Court hearings,

the rows that have gone on inside that place, that is all over now.

Now it is for real and we have a situation where Britain has formally

said that, for the first time in 44 years, it wants to leave the trade

block it has been part of. What Theresa May was trying to did they

was to tread a fine line between saying we are going to negotiate and

we are going to negotiate hard, but also to say that we wanted to

negotiate. We are not just going to bang on the table. We realise there

has to be compromises on this one. We do want to strike a deal if we

can. What did you make of the tone of what she had to say? At one

point, I will quote it, she said we are leaving the European Union, but

not leaving Europe, we want to remain committed partners and allies

to our friends across the continent. That was not hardline, that is

fairly pragmatic in town? She has been fairly emollient in the speech

that she has made. If you look at this latter, the hard-code rhetoric

is not there. There will be some Brexiteers that have wanted to get

out of Europe for years he will perhaps think she being a little bit

soft. I think what she is wanting to do is reserve her powder, so to

speak. She knows that the negotiations will be long, they will

be tough, they will be protracted. There will be plenty of times for

rows in the weeks, months and possibly even years ahead. I think

what she was wanting to try to do is be as emollient and constructive as

she could do at the moment. There is no guarantee that it will continue

like that. More to come, we have the publication of a Great Repeal Bill,

the Government will really want to get negotiations going? Let's deal

with that Great Repeal Bill. It is something that is actually quite

hard to get hold of. If you think of it this way, it is a way of taking

all the EU law that we have at the moment that has been made in

Brussels and putting it back to the UK. It is a phenomenally complex and

lengthy piece of legislation, but also a very important one. Next,

onto the question that you asked about negotiations and when they

will be beginning. We had an initial response, and we will get a further

one in a couple of days. I doubt the HARDTalk is good to start

immediately. There are certain events, such as the French

elections, which have got to take place and various other things in

the European calendar. Where I think there will be a point of contention

is how the negotiations start. Will they be negotiations held in tandem,

will they be talking about Britain's withdrawal from the EU and, at the

same time, the possible is of trade deals, or will the EU collectively

play hardball and say that we have to sort the money helped first, --

sort the money helped first, potentially what the UK is owed and

will owe the European Union, before we do anything else.

Lets cross to Hollywood and Brian Taylor. MSPs will be watching events

in Brussels and Westminster and being reminded that they are not in

the driving seat today. What is the mood? They are not, with regard to

the negotiations in the European Union, they will be conducted by the

United Kingdom Prime Minister. That causes great disquiet to say the

least to Angus Robertson. He believes the Prime Minister has a

reneged on that, and the Prime Minister said it was always the case

that it would be devolved, but driven by the UK. Then we have the

option of independence, if you are standing from a nationalist

position, you hear the speech from the Prime Minister, you say that,

the argument is that the shape of Brexit will be clear within 18

months or two years, and therefore that opens the door to a referendum

on that timescale. The Conservatives say that two years of negotiation,

followed by a phase transition period to avoid that the cliff edge

concern, and say do not even contemplate a referendum on

independence until that is out of the way. Then we have a third

factor, what will emerge from these talks? We spoke to the First

Minister and she believes that the Prime Minister is simply not in

command of events. There is no doubt that what is happening today does

represent something of a leap in the dark. Nine months after the

referendum, the Prime Minister cannot answer basic questions about

what Brexit will mean for businesses, for the economy

generally, the type of society we live in. Article 50 is the big event

today, the huge event. Nicola Sturgeon is commenting on it but not

intervening in it. She wishes the Prime Minister well in that task, in

the aims and ambitions of achieving as good a deal as possible for

Britain. Then we refer to the independence question. Nicola

Sturgeon will dispatch her letter, perhaps on Thursday, perhaps on

Friday, following the vote on Friday, and what will the Prime

Minister's response be? She was a no. The Prime Minister said in the

Commons that she expected some of the powers which will be returned

from Brussels to go to the devolved administrations in Scotland and

Northern Ireland. Does that add anything to what we already know? I

think it has already been known and been said. It will be the difference

between what the PM is saying and what the letter says, that the

accretion of EU roars down the decades will be returned to the UK

member state and built into British law. It is at that point that you

will have the dispersal of some of these powers. The Prime Minister

said that Scotland will not lose any powers, and secondly that there will

be further involvement in additional powers. What the Scottish Government

is saying is that areas like agriculture and fisheries are

already devolved, they should go automatically, the European element

should return automatically to devolved power. I think the UK

Government sees it as a 2-stage process.

Brian Taylor, Holyrood. Let's get more from Hamish McDonnell from the

Times. This call for an independence referendum from Hollywood, in a

sense, MSPs got their retaliation in first yesterday? The whole thing

seems to have been choreographed by spin doctors. We have a debate, we

have a vote, we have Nicola Sturgeon saying, right, this letter will be

presented. Then, that very evening, we got footage of Theresa May

signing her letter to go to Brussels. The letter from Nicola

Sturgeon is now going to be delayed for a couple of days until the news

agenda dies down. I think there was a lot this week which has that feel

of being stage-managed. I think it leaves us with a sense that nobody

quite knows what is going to happen after we get past these

stage-managed events. When we get it next week, and all of these letters

have been delivered, the stated positions of all of the parties are

there, then we enter into a whole new sort of episode where, really,

nobody knows where we are going. We are going to get a letter from

Nicola Sturgeon to Theresa May, calling for another referendum,

demanding it. Brian said, as we heard, that the answer was going to

be no. What then? I think we got some hint from David Mundell, the

Scottish Secretary, last night. He gave the impression that the

timescale the UK Government are looking for another independence

referendum is going to be pushed out probably beyond the next 2021

Scottish elections. All that is what they want. Nicola Sturgeon said she

wanted between the autumn of 2018 and the spring of 2019, and the UK

Government says we want to push that ours far as possible. In that sense,

we have a constitutional stalemate. There are some things that the First

Minister can do. She can make very symbolic gestures, she can make sure

that the bill authorising a new referendum can be put through the

Scottish parliament, even though it has no legal effect. She can even

introduce her own Section 30 order, which has no legal effect. All that

will do a symbol boldly say that the Scottish Government is ready, the

Scottish parliament is ready for another independence referendum.

They won permission from Westminster. Really, it is a way of

keeping the pressure on the Prime Minister to say, we have not gone

away, we are still demanding an independence referendum and we can

continue to put pressure on, as much as we can. Thank you for now.

So what does Theresa May's letter tell us about

Joining me now via Skype from Brussels is Ryan Heath -

Politico magazine's Senior EU Correspondent.

Thank you very much for joining us. We heard there a conciliatory

message from Theresa May in the Commons. Almost a sad and sorrowful

response from Donald Tusk, the European Council President. Does

that go well for talks? I think we should not read much into the

difference in tone. The EU is busy very sad this is happening. It is

not something they wanted, even though it is one half of Britain

wanted. I think Theresa May has been upping the negative rhetoric over

the first weeks and months of 2017, that put the EU in a bit of a

defensive mode. There were caught out by the government really pushing

for the harvest of hard -- hardest of hard Brexits. Theresa May has

come out with a better sense of goodwill, try to get off on the

right foot, and maybe that has wrong-footed Donald Tusk. I think it

will settle down in the weeks and months to come. We know that the UK

Government wants to tie everything together. They want to agree a

divorce deal and an exit deal, and a potential trade deal, all together,

because the clock is ticking. They want it all to be done and dusted,

all in one. How does the EU see that? There was the case of Theresa

May saying she wants it all. Until now, the EU has been reasonably firm

that this has to be going in a certain sequence, that you need to

settle your bill, that you need to make sure you know what is happening

with citizens that live abroad, from both the UK and the EU, before you

start talking about the free trade deal. That probably was not very

realistic, even if it was technically and legally correct to

say that. At the same time, Theresa May can't have what she wants, the

biggest, deepest, best ever tree deal with the EU that doesn't

include components of how the single market works, like freedom of

movement. At some point, the parties will have to make trade-offs. They

are sticking out their opening gambits, they are saying what they

ideally want, but that is not how negotiations work. Either you

compromise or there is no deal. How much of a problem could it be for

the UK that the EU might not want to make it easy for the UK to leave?

Might they want to try to hammer the UK? There are people that want to

make the divorce painful, either because they want to get a pound of

flesh, or they are looking at interests of the EU 27. You have

people like the leader of the biggest party in the European

Parliament, he says, well, it is not my job any more to look out for

Britain's interests. It is my job to look out for the 440 million. That

sounds harsh, but that is what Theresa May is doing when she says

she is putting Britain first in these negotiations. You have some of

this tough language here. The problem for Britain is that when it

is 27 against one in the negotiation and the clock is ticking down, that

is when it gets harder for Britain. That is why it was so important to

get off to a good start today, try to keep some goodwill in the room.

If you don't get the early progress, if there is bad blood, in the first

months, it is much harder to catch up when you're down into the final

months in 2018. This is the first time for the EU, in a sense. It is

the first time any country has wanted out. Until now, there has

just been a line of countries queueing to get in. How difficult is

that going to be for Brussels and, indeed, for other European

countries? Very difficult. Brussels is a town that isn't the best at

self reflection, let's say. They do well when they are doing well and

they find it very hard to cope with criticism. You know, if you make

criticisms of how the EU operates, you frequently seen as somebody who

wants to destroy the EU, or bring it down. That is not the case for many

critics of the EU. Brussels is going to have to learn to live with the

fact that there are going to be people criticising it every single

day. They will have a very tough job to keep 27 countries on one page. It

will be in Theresa May's interests to make sure she is getting some

reassurances from Germany on the car industry, make sure she is working

with Baltic countries on digital. Make sure she is working with all of

those countries that have British pensioners living inside them. It

will be a tough job for those officials in Brussels to keep the 27

on one page. Let's not forget, Theresa May has her own difficulties

at the moment, both on Scotland, which you know well, and Northern

Ireland. She is at risk of losing two unions at once if she doesn't

keep a good eye on her own backyard. Many thanks for that. Ryan Heath,

from a back politico magazine. There were noisy exchanges at PMQs,

but the Leader of the Opposition chose to take a different tack. Here

is what happened. I want to begin by paying tribute to the emergency

services, as the Prime Minister did, across the country, especially all

of those that responded to the Westminster attack last Wednesday

and to those that turned out to help the victims of the new ferry

explosion last Saturday. Our thoughts remain with the injured and

those that have lost loved ones, especially thanking the police for

their ongoing investigations. Could the Prime Minister assurance that

the police will be given all the necessary support and resources to

take them through this very difficult period in investigating

what happened last Wednesday? I join the Right Honourable Gentleman in

praising the work of our emergency services who, as he pointed out,

have to deal with a wide range of incidents that took place. Our focus

in this house has been most recently on the attack that took place last

Wednesday, we should never forget that day in, day out, emergency

services are working on our behalf and often putting themselves in

danger as a result of the work that they do. I can assure him that I

have been keeping in touch, as has my right honourable friend, the Home

Secretary, with both security services and the Metropolitan Police

on the investigation that is taking place into the attack last week, and

looking forward to security arrangements. I can assure him that

they have the resources that they need to carry out their vital work.

Of course, we all pay tribute to the police for the work that they do.

But there are some problems. Between 2015-2018, there will be a real

terms cut in central government funding to police forces of ?330

million. Can the Prime Minister assure the house that the police all

over the country have the necessary resources to do the job? I would

remind the Right Honourable Gentleman that what we have done in

the CSR is protected that police budget. The former Shadow Home

Secretary, his own colleagues, the right Honourable Member for Leigh,

prior to the Labour Party Conference, said that savings can be

found, and the police said that 5% or 10% is doable. We haven't done

that, we have protected the budget. I have been speaking, as the right

honourable Home Secretary has, to police forces and they are clear

that they have the resources that they need. We associate ourselves

with the condolences of the Prime Minister and the leader of the

Labour Party, the praise for the emergency and security services

during and after the appalling atrocity last week. Last year, the

Prime Minister promised that before she would trigger Article 50, she

would secure a UK wide approach and agreement...

Last year the Prime Minister did make that promise. She promised

there would be an agreement with the governments of Scotland, Wales and

Northern Ireland before triggering Article 50. The Prime Minister has

now triggered Article 50 and she has done so without an agreement. There

is no agreement. Why has she broken her promise and broken her word? I

have been very clear throughout and since the first visit that I made...

Says the first visit I made as Prime Minister to Edinburgh last July,

which was that we were going to work with the devolved administrations,

that we would develop a UK wide approach, but that in the

negotiations it would be a UK approach that was taken into the

negotiations and it would be the United Kingdom government that took

forward that position. I would simply remind the Right Honourable

Gentleman that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. Watch this

space! People will note that the Prime Minister did not deny that she

would seek a UK wide approach, an agreement with the governments of

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and that there is no

agreement. Mr Speaker, the Scottish Government was elected with a higher

percentage of the vote, with a bigger electoral mandate than the UK

Government. Yesterday, the Scottish Parliament voted by 69-59 that

people in Scotland should have a choice about their future. After the

negotiations of the European Union are concluded, there will be a

period for democratic approval of the outcome. That choice will be

exercised in this Parliament, in the European Parliament and in 27 member

states of the European Union. Given that everybody else will have a

choice in the matter, will the people of Scotland have a choice? I

say to the Right Honourable Gentleman... I say to the Right

Honourable Gentleman that we are taking forward the views of the

United Kingdom into the negotiations with the European Union, on the

United Kingdom Brexiting the European Union. The Scottish

Nationalists party consistently talks...

Order! Order! This is very unseemly heckling. You are a distinguished

QC. You would not heckle like that in the Scottish courts. You would be

chucked out! The SNP consistently talks about independence as the only

subject they wish to talk about. What I say to the right honourable

gentleman and his colleagues is this - now is not the time to be talking

about a second independence referendum.

Well, let's cross to Westminster now, and our correspondent

Thank you, and no prizes for guessing what we are going to be

talking about so without further ado, let me introduce my guests,

Alistair Carmichael for the Liberal Democrats, an SNP representative,

Ian Murray for Labour and a Conservative representative. I will

begin with you. The Prime Minister came to the House of Commons and

gave a very lengthy statement, and questions as well, but when you boil

it down, there was very little real meat, was there? There was a lot of

meat and if it were two or three messages she had for the House on

the country is that she is the Prime Minister for the whole of the United

Kingdom and I've got a copy of the statement here and one thing that

she said that touched me, and she said for the first time, actually,

she says, "I will represent every person in the whole of the UK and,

yes, those EU nationals who have this country their home". I welcomed

that message from the Prime Minister and what I would say to those other

parties in the House of commons, it's now time to put shoulders to

the wheel, make sure we deliver a deal that is in the best interests

of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We've got to get a

good deal for all of us and for the EU. It's got to be win- when and I

believe we can do it but only if we all work together. You mentioned EU

nationals living in the UK. Would today not have been an opportune

time for her to say, "I've spoken to the president of the European

Council and have told him that come what may, their rights will be

guaranteed"? Would that not have been, perhaps, an article of faith

to make as we begin these negotiation is? I entirely

understand that and I had a word with the PM on this very point but

what about those Glaswegians, Caledonians, people from Inverness

who live in Spain, Italy and France? Who is looking after their

interests? This isn't about bargaining chips. The Prime Minister

has made it clear time and time again that the top of the agenda

right now, now that Article 50 has been delivered, and here's the

letter that's been sent today to talk now that this letter's been

sent, the first thing that has to be agreed is on the status of EU

nationals and that's UK citizens living in the EU and my parents, my

sister and other EU nationals living in the UK. I believe that we are

going to get this deal but I do ask other parties to help the PM.

Do you think there could be a situation whereby before the

nitty-gritty of the negotiations gets under way, this point could be

sorted? I think there is probably unanimity amongst you that you want

this sorted. It could be sorted and I did think that the speech that

Donald Tusk gave when he received the letter today did but a very

conciliatory tone. I thought the tone was right and he said

negotiations should start from the right perspective. But the PM's

statement in the House was completely and utterly vacuous. It

was a wish list of things the Prime Minister once and if you do still

the wish list down, you come to the conclusion that you should be a

member of the European Union. We can't have that now, we've triggered

Article 50. I agree with Alberto to a certain extent it up we have to

work together to get the best possible deal. This triggering has

meant the bus to leave the EU has left the station and we have to be

on it told the government to account, to make sure parliament is

involved, the public in bold in this process and to make sure we are

looking at the interests of the sectors and businesses across

Scotland and the UK and we have to get this off the table. Let's

venture EU nationals in the UK have their rights respected. We can then

take that off the in tray and talk about other issues and that is what

important. Constructive working with all the parties, to show that the UK

is speaking with one voice? We think we should have a differentiating

deal for Scotland and we have in clear about that and play that out

before Christmas. The Prime Minister promised she would come to an accord

with the countries within the UK before triggering this and she

hasn't done that. In fairness, the UK Government has written to the

Scottish Government, responding to the White Paper. After the

triggering of Article 50, it's a bit late now. In terms of what we were

talking about a round fighting for the best deal, if you like, we will

continue to do what we've been doing the House of Commons, which is

highlighting those areas we don't think the UK Government has noticed,

has enough expertise in. We will be talking about fishing, farming, the

local communities and the impact on them that Brexiters going to have if

the Prime Minister doesn't do her utmost to get this right. I don't

have a huge amount of faith in her abilities to get this right, however

I will continue to make that case and continue to support our

communities. Alistair Carmichael, you've worked with Theresa May in

government. I think you might subscribe to the Ken Clarke theory

that she is quite determined and sometimes a bit stubborn. Is she

tough and stubborn enough to get a good deal from the UK? The

relationship was always a challenging one between Liberal

Democrats and Theresa May and nothing has changed in that regard.

She has started to talk the language of unity but she is still practising

the politics of division. She's still talking about taking us out of

the single market, taking us out of the customs union, and she's talking

about the possibility was walking away no deal. That is her agenda. I

have to say, any talk of cross-party working is absolutely meaningless

because there is nothing, I suspect, that any of the three of us can work

with Theresa May or any other Conservative on if she is prepared

to go into the negotiations with that frame of mind and possibly to

walk away with no deal, because, believe me, for the farmers and

fishermen of Shetland and Orkney, for the financial services companies

in Edinburgh, probably for the oil companies of Aberdeen, no deal would

be the worst possible deal that we could have. Let's move on to an

associated point, and it will fall into the negotiation is. She has

said now is not the time for a second independence referendum.

Yesterday, the UK Government in response of the Scottish Parliament

vote basically said the process has to be completed and that may

including cementation, pushing its own way into the future. She cannot

back down on that now, can she, particularly as she is going into

negotiations with the EU? If they see her back down on something like

that, they will think she is fair game. A second independence

referendum in Scotland is possibly one of the few things you could do

that would make this very difficult situation even worse. I have to say,

as somebody who is passionate about the UK's place as part of the EU, we

voted yes in June last year to us remaining part of the European

Union, I kind of resent my support for Europe now being used by the SNP

as a tool to break up the United Kingdom when they are not even

prepared to tell us whether we would be back in the EU if they get their

way ultimately in-out referendum. It is not a trigger for a second

independence referendum, it's the excuse that they had been looking

for since the 19th of September 2014. In the act of unity, why don't

you accept what Theresa May has said, there will be no second

independence referendum until Brexit is complete, and then you and the

rest of the MPC can get on with the process of securing the best deal

for the UK? We have a mandate for a second independence referendum. The

manifesto are parties to the last year clearly said that in this very

eventuality we were told an independence referendum all reserve

the right to hold on. There was a higher vote for us in the Scottish

Parliament than Theresa May got in 2015, the Scottish Parliament have

voted 69 to 59 in order to support the section 30 agreement. The

Scottish people have got to have the opportunity to have a choice.

Parliaments across Europe will have a choice about whether this happens.

The Scottish the budget have that choice. We promised it in our

manifesto. Is talk of a second referendum money mental destruction

to what we are about to undergo? It is not just a monument mental

destruction but hugely damaging to the Scottish economy. None of us

have any answers for the previous question about what Brexiters going

to look like. To compound that with another upheaval is a dereliction of

duty. We should be trying to make sure we get the best possible deal

of our constituents in the sectors, financial services and higher

education being two in my constituency, and to go down this

route of a trigger on a second independence referendum is a

dereliction of governing the country. There is a key point here,

what we are being offered now, if the SNP get their way, is the UK

coming out of the EU, which would mean that Scotland, if it went

independent, would be out of the UK and the EU, that is the worst of all

odds. I echo Ian's points. Of the SNP got their way, it would be out

of the EU, out of the UK and viewers ought to be reminded that 400,000

SNP voters voted to leave the EU. It is not as if all the SNP voters in

Scotland wanted to stay in the EU so let's be honest about this. The

people of Scotland don't want another referendum. Let's just get

on, let's get a good deal that is the interests of Britain and of the

that's what we all want. We have to leave it there. Thank you all very

much. I was about to say, we will no doubt return to this subject next

week and then I realised that Westminster is in recess but, fear

not, Scottish independence and Brexit - we will return to it! Back

to you. We will be back for years to come, I

suspect. Hamish Macdonell from

the Times is still with me. Let's have a look at some of the

issues that will have to be negotiated because there is a lot

there. There is the fate of EU nationals here, British expats, as

we call them, across on the continent, there is money, trade,

all sorts of things. It's difficult to see a single area where there

aren't going to be sticking points. Even in something like trade, there

is this impression it is all to do with cars and big practical goods

like that but most of the trade that is done is of an invisible nature -

financial services, look at the city of Edinburgh and the amount of trade

the financial services companies do there with Europe. All that sort of

thing has to be ironed out at the sticking points are immense. That's

one thing which the EU want to try to resolve right at the start. They

want to try and work out what the divorce bill is going to be and

there has been talk of ?60 billion. The UK Government are not going to

want to go near that. That negotiation in itself could be

locked for weeks, months, and that's just the very first thing before we

get into trade so it is difficult to see how this is going to go well.

Hamish, stay with us. Yesterday, the delayed

debate on holding a second Scottish independence referendum

took place in Holyrood. After offering condolences

and support to those caught up in last week's Westminster attack,

MSPs got underway, here's a taste My argument is simply this. The

nature of the change that is made inevitable by Brexit becomes clear.

That change should not be imposed upon us. We should have the right to

decide the nature of that change. The Prime Minister was clear with me

yesterday that she intends the terms of Brexit, both the exit terms and

the UK's future relationship with the EU, to be known before the UK

leaves and in time for ratification by other EU countries. In other

words, sometime between the autumn of next year and the spring of 2019.

Let me be clear - I want the UK to get a good deal from these

negotiations because whatever path Scotland chooses to take on the

future, that is in our interests. I simply want Scotland to have a

choice when the time is right. So I hope the UK Government will respect

the will of this Parliament. If it does so, I will enter discussions in

good faith and with a willingness to compromise. However, if it chooses

not to do so, I will return to the parliament following the Easter

recess to set up the steps that the Scottish Government will take to

progress the will of Parliament. First of all, she should be aware

that even her own colleagues don't share her view. As Alex Neil stated

last week, or may not be done and dusted by March 2019 and the

timetable for a trade deal could extend beyond that day. I refer the

First Minister to that leading authority on all things European,

Joe McAlpine, who said in January - I won't do the accent - there is no

way a trade agreement will be put in place within two years. That is

completely unrealistic. Can I ask Ruth Davidson a specific question.

The Primus said clearly to me yesterday that it is her intention

for the terms and the competence of trade deal to be agreed before March

2019. Can I take from Ruth Davidson's, today the two things I

should mistrust the word of the Prime Minister? What I find

remarkable is that the Prime Minister has been absolutely clear

time after time, question after question, in the media, as a

statement, in the House of Commons, to say that now was not the time but

it will take time to see a deal bed in but what I can't believe is that

the one person she dug into her trust was the First Minister who has

been trying to derail this from the very beginning and in a one-to-one

meeting, she is the only person who could make Theresa May change her

mind, and she is not a woman known for changing her mind, was Nicola

Sturgeon who could not wait to run out to the bank of microphones to

tell all about it. I won't take any lessons from the First Minister

because, actually, sit down, nothing changed yesterday. I have answered

the First Minister's Grimson -- question. I will not take another

intervention. "Yes" vote's meeting between the Prime Minister and the

First Minister summed up where we are in this country today, two in

transient leaders. In the week since we last met, issues which are

normally dominated our newspapers have been buried in the back. We

have learned that the SNP has abandoned a promise to reduce the

working hours of junior doctors, a promise made by the former First

Minister to the parents of a woman who lost her life. We have seen a

damning report into the quality of child and adolescent mental health

services and it has been confirmed that cancer waiting time targets

have not been met the four years. Each of these three issues

constitutes an individual scandal. Together, they represent a complete

abdication of responsibility but we are not discussing any of these

things. After all, why would the government responsible for the NHS

want to debate its 10-year record on health service? Not when there is

another independence debate to be had. The Scottish Green Party is not

a nationalist party. We are Greens and our politics is decentralised,

autonomous, confederal list and cooperative. We stood on a manifesto

that outlined ideas to deepen and strengthen democracy. One of these

proposals was for a more open and participatory lawmaking progress --

process in which citizens could trigger a vote on issues of the

Scottish Parliament. We highlighted that this was our preferred way of

deciding to hold a second referendum but, contrary to much misreporting,

it is not the only means by which we would vote in favour of another

referendum. The two clearest indications of the will of the

electorate today have been the independence referendum vote in 2014

and Scotland's Remain vote in 2016. They are clearly incompatible with a

further choice and our party remains as committed as we always have been

to autonomy, self-government, independence and can federalism. The

decision to withdraw from Europe broke my heart but as an

internationalist, my response could never be too up sticks from the one

union of nations I have left and instead I choose to stay, to resist

Brexit and then to fight every election thereafter on a platform of

re-entry to the EU. There is no comfort for ardent Europeans in the

current vacillation of the SNP. Will he give way? I will, to Tom Arthur.

Liberal Democrats have been fighting on a platform of Federal Reserve is

on for over a century. I thank him for his intervention. My party has

been fighting a lost cause as all of my life but I will achieve this one.

Well, the debate continued for some time after Mr Cole-Hamilton outed

himself and his party as a fighter for lost causes

the SNP securing a win with the help of the Greens.

Well, let's talk to some MSPs right now.

Liam Kerr is from the Scottish Conservatives.

For Scottish Labour we have Lewis Macdonald.

John Finnie is from the Scottish Greens.

And Liam Macarthur is from the Scottish Liberal Democrats.

But Kate Forbes, you've made your position clear in the Scottish

Parliament. You want a referendum on independence but we know what

Theresa May has to say about that, it's not going to happen. What do

you do now? At the moment, Theresa May's position is completely

unsustainable because she is saying that we will know the detail of the

Brexit negotiations in 200 years and so we could make a decision about

Scotland's future in two years. Last night the Scottish Parliament spoke

and a majority of SNP is -- SNPs -- MSPs backed it. This call for a

referendum must be responded to. She is going to do that in her own good

time and it is not going to be within the time frame Nicola

Sturgeon has a nine. You have options now, but it you could, for

example, coal-fired and advisory referendum on independence. If you

think that is what the people of Scotland want, why not do that now?

We just returned the vote last night with a majority of pro-independence

MSPs in the Scottish Parliament. It is now very much in Theresa May's

court to decide how to respond but to disagree and ignore the cause of

the people of Scotland for another referendum, I think would show

absolute disdain for the sovereignty of the Scottish people. You can see

why she might be sceptical about the time frame that Nicola Sturgeon has

set out because we know that these negotiations will not get under way

until after the German elections this autumn, in substance. There is

a lot to talk about, an awful lot to wrangle about. It is hard to see how

a deal can be done by the spring of 2019, as you might like. It might

surprise you that I have to take the primaries on her word and she said

quite clearly, and again in her letter today, that she intends to

negotiate the divorce and that the relationship over the course of the

next two years. So within the next two years, we will know what the

Brexit deal is and we will know what its impact will be on Scotland and

so it is only right that we make sure that the people of Scotland

have the opportunity to decide what our future is. Our future should be

in our hands. Liam curve from the Conservatives, that letter has now

been handed over to the European Union, confirming that Brexit is

finally happening. When can we expect to see that ?350 million a

week for the NHS across the UK which Boris Johnson promised? I think,

actually, that question isn't really relevant to what we're talking about

today. What we are talking about is the vote yesterday the Scottish

Parliament tom in which the Scottish Parliament decided, in an advisory

vote, but it wanted to seek permission to have another

independence referendum. I made the point that it was an advisory and I

think this is a very important thing to say because Nicola Sturgeon talks

about having a mandate to run another independence separation

campaign. There is no mandate there. The Scottish Parliament has voted on

five separate occasions against the Scottish Government and the Scottish

Government on five separate occasions has chosen to ignore the

Scottish Parliament. During the Brexit campaign, senior

Conservatives, including Boris Johnson and Liam Fox and Iain Duncan

Smith were very clear there was going to be lots more money for the

health service in the event Brexit. But these promises have been

scrapped. You could see why the SNP are angry, can't you? You can see

why many voters in Scotland actually feel betrayed by the Brexiteers.

What many voters in Scotland feel is that they don't want another

referendum. Poll after poll has said no, not now, and we've seen that

time and again and that is what we've tried to represent. What the

people of Scotland want now, actually, is for the Scottish

Government to get on with doing the job was elected do. That has the

power to sort out the Scottish NHS over to sort out the Scottish

education system, the police, any other area that you wish to name.

The Scottish Parliament has the power to do some thing about it. It

is not doing anything about it because it would far rather put up

more flags for another divisive referendum that no one actually

wants, not now. Let's return to that in a moment. Lewis Macdonald, from

Labour, Scottish voters might be confused about what your party

stands for here, because Jeremy Corbyn didn't want to block Article

50. Told his MPs not to block it. He doesn't want second referendum on

the result of these negotiations, even if there is the hardest of hard

Brexit. Does Labour have any meaningful role in this process? We

could hardly have been clearer in the debate in Parliament yesterday

in what Kezia Dugdale had to say. Theresa May is promising to conclude

Brexit negotiations in two years. That is whistling in the wind.

Nicola Sturgeon, and we heard Kate Forbes do it again today, says that

Theresa May is the ultimate authority on how long these talks

will take. That is just not true. Every expert within Europe and

Britain, we heard the former UK representative to Brussels, saying

there is not the slightest chance of competing Brexit negotiations in two

years. He reckons, and he says people in Brussels reckon, that it

will be into the mid 2020ss so it is a complete fallacy to suggest that

we will know in two years what the offer is on Brexit. That will not be

the case. SNP ministers have been asked time and again over the last

few weeks what the offer would be on independence, how the fiscal deficit

would be addressed, whether it would apply to join the EU and it has not

been able to answer any of these questions. Labour's job is to hold

both governments to account and it is clear both governments need

holding to account because the people of Scotland have already

voted on the issue of leaving the UK and they said they did not want to

do that. You talk about holding them to account but how can Jeremy Corbyn

do that if he doesn't give the impression that leaving the EU is a

terribly bad thing? If you look at, and I'm sure you will have looked

at, the six tests that Labour set for Brexit this week, Labour have

said that we want to see a Brexit deal that protect the vital

interests of Britain and we have made a number of critical areas in

which that has to happen. Our job is to hold the UK Government to account

it up Kate Forbes is entitled to make points around the sovereignty

of the people and we don't dispute the sovereignty of the people. The

people of Scotland do not want another independence referendum. I

asked both Nicola Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie in this debate, what

evidence there was the people wanted it and they could offer none and we

although the people of Scotland do not want a referendum. I'm squeezed

four-time. Let's bring in John from the Scottish Greens. I wonder, John,

is leaving the EU really such a disaster to your voters? It is a big

market, it is a trading arrangement. Is that really something that Green

voters will weep about? The Greens are an outward looking,

internationalist party but I think England, Scotland is an island in

the UK should grieve about with the EU. There is no suggestion that we

will be leaving the single market and you put a question earlier on to

Liam about ?350 a week, well, Scotland would like its share of

that for the NHS. So that was a very poor debate that was had in relation

to the exit from the EU and did people change their minds? Most

certainly, Theresa May has. You have sided with the SNP. You said you

weren't internationalist, Confederate party and actually, you

are lining up to vote with a nationalist party did is odd, isn't

it? Not at all. We want decisions made in Scotland that aren't being

made in Scotland at the moment, just as we would want more local autonomy

and decision making, so it is entirely consistent with the

position that the party has had since 1990, as was eloquently laid

out by my colleague in the chamber yesterday. Let's bring in Liam

McArthur from the Scottish Liberal Democrats. I wonder, have you given

up, then, on your dream of UK in the European Union? Is that still

something that you want to achieve with another referendum? Where do

you stand now? Absolutely not. I think the Liberal Democrats are the

one main party which is unequivocally on the side of the

majority of people in Scotland. We want Scotland to remain part of the

UK and the UK to remain part of the EU. There was no getting away from

the fact that the folk last June was a devastating blow for those of us

who believe in our role within the EU but we need to accept that

result. What it was, though, was a decision to enter into negotiations

about Brexit. What it wasn't was a mandate to negotiate the sort of

hard Brexit Theresa May appears intent on negotiating and,

ultimately, it is not for politicians to determine whether or

not the deal that is struck with our European partners is acceptable and

in accordance with that vote last June, it is up to the people, and we

believe the British people need an opportunity to reflect on what has

been negotiated and cast their vote accordingly. There we must leave it.

Thank you all very much. Let's get a final word from Hamish. That

underlines the fact that this issue is not settled. The Lib Dems want

another referendum to reverse the whole process. None of these things

are going to be settled for years. We have no idea what is going to

happen next. One of the nice things, actually, is that both parliaments

are now going into recess for a couple of weeks and let everybody

take stock. Here in Scotland, we know that when we come back from the

Easter recess, Nicola Sturgeon has said she will become into the

Scottish Parliament and laying out the steps that she is next going to

take to try to keep fighting for an independence referendum. So, yes, we

are going to have a break for Easter but it will start when we get back.

Let's talk about those tactics. The SNP are ruling out an advisory

referendum, so it seems at this point in time. What options do they

have? By Basie MPs resigning en masse? They could try to force

another Scottish election. -- might they see. They could get a fresh

mandate to say, we want an independence referendum. I think

that is unlikely. You could see mass resignations of the Westminster MPs

but I think that is unlikely because I think the patience of voters has

been somewhat tested and how they will react to the SNP, I don't know.

I think it is much more likely we will get little Parliamentary

symbolic moves to keep the issue up there and if the Brexit negotiations

go badly, I think at that point the SNP will really start to crank up

the pressure on the UK Government. There we must leave it. Thank you

very much indeed for that. We're taking a break for Easter

but Politics Scotland FMQs is tomorrow at midday

on BBC Two Scotland. One man had the vision to take

inspiration from the ancient and create buildings that were

the envy of the world.