Episode 5 The Nolan Show

. Thank you very much. Hello. Thank you very much. Hello.

You are all very welcome, we are live on BBC One.

Here's what's coming up tonight. Has there been a secret deal

between the political parties in north Belfast to build houses, not

on the basis of need but on the basis of a sectarian carva. A

minimum minimum 14 year tariff for a 17-year-old who murdered a

Catholic police officer. Stephen Carol's widow told me her

reaction to the sentence is that she is distraught. She is in this

studio with us here tonight. sentence will never end. It is

totally devastating. Destroyed us all as a family. We will never be

the same again. Also Coming up, the lengths one woman had to go to to

get her money back despite the Small Claims Court ruling in her

favour. I had to kick in. Right time to serve the summons.

We have a packed studio tonight and there are loads of ways for you to

The redevelopment of a barracks is more than a building project. It

might give us a snap snapshot of where we stand in Northern Ireland

as a divided community. According to the housing executive over 90%

of people who need new build housing in north Belfast are

Catholic. In 2011 the nationalist Housing Minister declared 220

houses were to be built at the Gertwood site. But as soon as the

DUP minister became Housing Minister he pressed the pause

button. Sinn Fein's Connor Maskey reacted said that it was a

sectarian decision. This week, this is why this story is so interesting,

because all of a sudden Sinn Fein, they called it a sectarian decision,

they have agreed to a deal with the DUP but are keeping the details

secret from you. Who votes them into power, you. Who pays for them?

You? What are they doing? Not telling you. Have any of these

parties signed up to allocating houses based on political gain and

a sectarian carva. Let's take a look at how this unfolded. On last

night's spotlight Mandy investigated Monday's deal on the

future of the former site in north Belfast. State-of-the-art

facilities, housing and all party agreement, what is not to like.

There's always been a vision for Gertwood to be a shared site with a

variety of uses. What we now have is an agreed plan, with all party

agreement, of the way forward in that regard. It is called a shared

space, but there is no shared housing. At either end of the site

the same old story, Catholics at one side, Protestants at the other.

The elephant in the room, a nationalist housing crisis in the

area. One that the plan and our Housing Minister don't seem to be

tackling. In the New Lodge area there are 165 cases of need among

nationalists. The minister has allocated 35 new homes. This is

into the kitchen. No room at all. You have this tiny space at the

back. Where do the children play? They have to play in the living

room, there no other space for them to play. A solution to the

nationalist housing problem with have to wait. Fundamental to

obtaining community support will be on going commitment by government

to secure gentlemen generation of deprived areas. Nelson macaws

land's hausing boost is intend today repopulate a long vacated

Protestant area. It is looking at ways of promoting this area, who

have lived here in the past, to come back into. There is also a

very high waiting list on mid-crumb Lynn and we are hoping to link into

that list to bring people, and invite them back into this

community. The move to regenerate has sidelined the first principle

of housing that, that those who need should be first in line. But

spotlight revealed it had been cut out of the deal. The housing

executive has been one of the great success stories of the last last 40

years, not least because imbed indeed our politics and public

policy that housing need informed housing allocation, if that

principle or if that approach is compromised, then that should out

alarm bells. This Chairman of the housing executive said it must be

protected from political interference. I have been

disappointed by the lack of concern. There appears to be on the part of

some political parties in defending an organisation and a model which

has been seen to work well in Northern Ireland since its

establishment in 1971. Just like tonight, Sinn Fein and the DUP

didn't take part in yesterday's programme. In statements to the

show both said the deal achieved all party agreement for

Joining me tonight is Alex at wood, the Environment Minister, a

community worker from the Shankill and our political editor Mark

Davenport. Let's get stuck in, set this out

for us, what's happened here? barracks is is obviously a site

with enormous potential, it is in north Belfast, a vast triangle of

land between the Antrim road and Crumlin road. North Belfast has

been a very troubled part of the city during the troubles, and if

you could regenerate this site, the hope is that it would represent a

symbol of a new era. But even though it was transferred from

Ministry of Defence to the executive as many as six years ago,

there's been no progress, apart from some of the buildings have

been levelled and it is a green field site. Because the whole

question of housing is contentious and that is because north Belfast

is conditionally a mixture of areas, with its sectarian geography and

one side will worry in terms of housing development that the whole

area and balance of the area could be changed. That is what has held

things up. For many years it's held it up. Yes, 2006 it was transferred

from the Ministry of Defence, so six years we are talking about. We

had a master plan in 2007 which came up with many details which

were announced on Monday, in terms of sports facilities and the plan

has a pitch will be used by various schools which could involve rugby,

soccer. A cross-community there. Will all be shared facilities. But

are any of those people living together? The housing zones which

we now see on the latest master plan, which was announced as part

of this break through on Monday, are two separate housing zones. It

is clear even though they are not giving the details, they are

looking at the map t would seen Catholics are likely to be offered

homes in an area which is down near the Antrim road and then there is

another area which is just outside the perimeter of the base that is

near Clifton park area. They are keeping them a quarter of a mile

apart. The buffer zone would be provided by the community hub, the

multi-sports spich and indoor sports arena. There is Abs lutly no

doubt -- absolutely no doubt that the majority of urgent housing need

in that north Belfast area is Catholics, nationalists? Certainly

that is the general consensus. You saw it in the film. The waiting

list is 90% nationalist. I should say during the day the DUP, Lee

Reynolds challenged that over twitter. He said 30% of those

waiting for houses are actually Protestant, so I am not the expert

on the figures. But a lot of the figures have not been published. I

think the general consensus, whatever we get into the figures,

overwhelmingly the waiting list is nationalist. And yet there is the

capacity to build some 30 homes for Protestants within that area. That

is what we saw on spotlight. Let's have a look at this photograph

which was controlled by government. It is all the politicians in a nice

leisure where is the photo. There they are. I want you to know at

home that that photograph controlled by government, not one

journalist allowed near it when it was happening, not one journalist

allowed to ask a question. Alex at wood, you are from the SDLP

obviously, is this deal good for nationalists? Given what Mark said

about the terrible history in north Belfast and the very difficult

politics in north Belfast, part of me can say I understand why that

photograph has taken place, because there was progress of a sort. But

we have to measure the progress against the price that's been paid.

The price that's been paid is that the article of faith around housing

allocation based strictly upon need, it appears that that's not the

principle that prevails in respect of the site. Also if we have acute

housing need in any part of the north, in the Shankill, lower old

park, north Belfast, then housing should be primarily built with

those with most acute need. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

Is it accurate to say, why I think this story is so important for us

to get the detail of, do you think it is accurate to say the principle

that has guarded us for so many years in Northern Ireland, which is

that housing will be allocated on need, on the basis of need, has it

been compromised here? At the very least it has been tarnished. At the

very worst it could be teetering on the edge of being fundamentally

changed. If we end up after 40 years of reform in the north that

core values like the principle of need ends up being a political

barter between political parties for political advantage, then I

will think that is a healthy way for us to decide to develop and

will compromise how we have developed as society over the last

40 years. Zo do you feel story for Olga McGuinness? For a generation

she has fought for the right values in north Belfast. Is he fighting

for the allocation based on need no matter what? He has fought for the

right values, but others wouldn't join him. I understand why a man of

the integrity and contribution for a generation in north Belfast saw

this could be a moment of break few it through. Is so so proud of it,

believes in it so much, has he spoken since that photograph, has

he spoken to these people, 100,000 people watching this tonight, is he

standing up like a man and saying this is why I believe in this, or

has he gone quiet. I will tell whau I am hearing, what a situation for

the people of Northern Ireland, who have been embased politics, I am

hearing lots of the political parties, this is really important,

they are whispering to each other during this process, few don't talk

to the media we won't, you give us a guarantee, we won't. That means

every person in this community, they are hiding the reasons for

their decisions. Let the people respond to that. Let the people

decide whether they are going to accept a photograph and nothing

else. APPLAUSE

I promise I will let you respond, but I tell you now, every one of

you in that photograph, look into my eyes, I want to know why you are

standing over your decision. I want to know on behalf of the people in

Northern Ireland. Stand up like a man, stand up like a woman and

explain to us what decision you have made and why. There are three

points. The first is I don't run down the integrity of a person like

Mr McGuinness who for 40 years in difficult circumstances has stood

by the right values. You may differ with him on this. Do you differ

with him? Let me answer the question Stephen, do not Barack

your audience or your bests. Don't run down somebody who has stood for

the right values and had a position of integrity, even if you disagree.

Secondly, I have been on this programme, I was on your programme

last night, I went on spotlight last night, in order to give

expression to the very issues you have given expression to, namely,

are we in a place and time in Northern Ireland politics where

values that have been formed, how society has developed in a wise way,

are being compromised because other parties who have the power are

involved in political barter, rather than making judgment based

upon need. Has McGuinness made a mistake? You are not going to put

words into my mouth. Has he made a mistake? All den McGuinness, people

of integrity, saw this as as a opportunity to move this site

forward. Has he made a mistake? Based against the standards that I

accept, when I was DSD minister, that need should prevail and this

site was critical in dealing with acute need in north Belfast, that

was a stlat ji -- strategy I outlined and that should continue

to be complied with. All people in my view should should judge

themselves against those values and that opportunity. We have a

decision here, this is bigger than this project, this is about why do

we make these decisions, how can we live together. If we can't live

together, let's have the politicians explaining to us why we

can't live live together instead of them going to ground. You feel they

have done a good deal. In 2006 when the site was handed over, I think

it is fair to say the community relations, crops community

relations in that part of Belfast were non-existent. Today we are in

a far better place. There are a multitude of cross-community

contacts, genuine friendships taking place. We have seen the

economic driver of the Titanic quarter and stuff like that. I

believe the two parties have made a courageous decision to use the

redevelopment of the site as an economic driver for the deprived

communities which border the site, shank ill, Antrim road etc. I do do

commend both parties for taking this decision. A cross-community

forum has met for well over a year to discuss issues around the

community hub with Belfast city council. We have agreed a way

forward together for that. That is a community hub, what about housing.

Is there a fundamental demand from the Protestant community for

housing on that site? Let's be clear. The lower park area has been

decimated. Reference was made last night to a particularly small

number of people on the waiting list, but on a waiting list for

what? Go to lower old park, look at it, it takes more than houses to

regenerate communities. We need a sustainable community in lower old

park, which is at peace with itself and its neighbours. The issue I

have is quite simple: Alex preed sesor Margaret Ritchie announced

500 houses on the site at one time. Alex announces 200 houses on the

site and on Monday we had McGuinness announcing a number he

doesn't know. I am keen to hear and the community I represent are keen

to hear how many houses do the SDLP want on that site. It is a question

I would like to know. We want to know. Everybody wants to know and

the politicians sit there and they decide what, these people aren't

worthy of knowing. I have talked a lot about the SDLP. To Sinn Fein,

for all the people sitting who are Sinn Fein voters, sitting on an

emergency waiting list and believe in your party to deliver for them,

why is the Sinn Fein representative there? Is Sinn Fein supporting

that? Because I will tell you with a, there is definitely silence

again. What on earth is happening. By the way I am not putting a

statement of fact, I am asking a question on behalf of the people

that you are representing. If those families are are on an urgent

waiting list, are you fighting for them to be at the top of the queue

or has there been a sick tearia carva here. Frank Dempsey, hello,

what are your feelings? I am a community worker. I listened to

Alec there and also the photograph shown there. It's nauseating. These

are the same politicians that call for transparency. You should be

practicing what they preach here. When I watched that programme last

night, I was taken aback by it. do you think Sinn Fein has agreed

to it? My problem is, I have been campaigning on housing issues, when

I saw that, I thought what's going on. My problem is, here we have a

27 acre site, one section set aside for nationalists and a section set

aside for unionists and they talk about bringing the communities

together. The politicians of north Belfast, if they think people who

are on the housing list for years, depend on them, they have been in

Stormont a long time. Here is a 27 acre site, who have they produced.

They have said this. Was there a deal done between the DUP and Sinn

Fein and the SDLP in relation to this. Do you know what they are

saying at the minute. Nothing. the SDLP and Sinn Fein rolled over.

Do we have to go back to 68 and get the banners up for civil housing.

You have prompted Eamonn to come into this. Let's go live to the

foil foil -- Foyle studio. Basically, they get a photograph

done, controlled by government and the people don't need to know

anything else? Resonance of this question is very clear. Houses are

going to be built but the houses are not going to be allocated on

the basis of need. How significant is that? It is very significant.

Anybody who understands the role of housing shortage of housing

provision and allocations, 40 years ago, as has been mentioned, the way

in which that played out, anyone who looks back on that experience

and considers what is happening in north Belfast, must really tremble

for the future. Why? I think what we are seeing is that the sectarian

manipulation in the allocation of public resources. Tax payers money.

Peter Robinson, I remember him recently saying, no more of them

and us. He publicly said it. this is them and us and a balance

between them. This is bigotry. can it be bigotry if there is all

party support? It might mean all parties are committed to a system

which regenerates bigotry within itself. The fact is this has been

run by the minister, Nelson macaws land is the main man here. He is a

disgrace. He would deny that and it is such a pity you are not here to

say it. Nelson would say that he has a political mandate, he would

say he is representing his community and he would also say he

is focusing on regeneration which is part of the blue President

Clinton of that -- blueprint of that plant.

He says he would represent his community. What was missing from

that programme last night was any voices from Protestant working

class people saying keep the Catholics out, we do not want

Catholics. I do not believe that the majority of Protestant working

class people people would argue for the proposition that houses should

be allocated on any basis other than need. This is coming from the

top and it is coming from people like Nelson McCausland. I have to

say there appears to be a fixation that X amount of houses on the site

would wipe out a specific need. That is the impression I get from

commentators. Let's be clear, if we look at north Belfast, nationalist

areas of north Belfast and even unionist areas of north Belfast,

there are a wealth of housing projects taking place to eliminate

housing need. I can't get over this fixation with Gertwood. It would

never be the be all and end all of a housing crisis. I think we need

to know in Northern Ireland if the housing executive is giving

individual citizens in this country based on need. Can you imagine how

we would feel in Northern Ireland if someone walked into a hospital

and a doctor had treated five Catholics first who were on the the

brink of death and needed emergency care because they were on an

emergency list and that same doctor said there have been been five Kath

Catholics any prods around now. Can you manage that situation.

You brought us this programme on spotlight last night. How difficult

was it to bring this story to the public? Myself and my producers

have been working on the story for months and in nine years this has

been one of the most difficult stories to report. We have been

staggered by how difficult it has been to access basic information,

basic facts about housing need in north Belfast. We did get some

information from the housings executive but when we asked the

housing executive for figures and information on urgent need to

explain why they wereate Kating houses where there was no demand,

they said we can't release that information to you because we need

the clearance and we need the approval of the DSD, Nelson

McCausland's department. We tried to get clearance, we couldn't get

it. These are basic facts and figures. Clearance came last night,

not long before the show, but it didn't address address any of the

questions we had asked. What is most worrying about this, is that

we were completely dependent for information on sources within the

housing executive and I am not just talking about one or two sources, I

am talking about a substantial number of sources, who are

extremely concerned but who are saying if we speak out publicly

against the Housing Minister, we risk being disciplined or sacked.

Is that the type of culture that we are going to create in Northern

Ireland? Is that seriously the type of culture that any politicians up

there are promoting? Mark, how many votes are there actually in a

situation for any of these political parties where people are

living apart? Obviously electoral geography comes into this, the DUP

has the Westminster constituency for north Belfast. There are

electoral calculations as well I suppose. But the minister would no

doubt say that he's made this decision more on the basis that he

wants to see regeneration of areas that have been run down, rather

than anything that could be stated as an election ploy. Alex, I want

to show you this tonight, this is a leaflet. The minister Nelson

McCausland and his department have been sending out. Just have a look

at that, it is encouraging people about housing housing opportunity

that there is in the lower Old Park area. Can I get your reaction if I

tell you that leaflet has been sent out to Protestants only. Can I deal

with Mandy's point, which is a critical point and one you will be

keen on and that is that there is an atmosphere up in Stormont and

there is an atmosphere in certain communities that you are not

allowed to say no, that you must abide by the prevailing view of

certain people in certain parties. I sit round the executive table and

I dissent because there is much to dissent from but there is a culture

beginning gathering authority why by if you stand up and say no or if

you ask questions in our political system after years where we

struggled for the right to free expression and free speech, then

people try to close you down. that a bullying culture? I don't

know if it is a command of control culture, whether it is the culture

of certain organisations from the past being translated into politics

of the present, or whether it is bullying, but whatever it is, it is

anti-democratic, it is unhealthy, it is not the way to ensure that

there's full and free debate. The second thing is this: however we

came to this point, how we came to this point, whatever you think of

the people in the photograph the truth of the matter is that a light

has has been shone on the fact that fundamentals about how we manage

our society for the last 40 years, that made our society better, in

particular around housing policy, housing allocation, housing

standards, that that is now in some jeopardy. People need to be very

firm in holding to those standards if we are not to end up with the

shadow of the past coming back. want to know, they will know you in

this community and they will either back you or they will not. There is

a leaflet sent out here, public money and it is being sent to one

section of the community. It's being sent to prot stabts and it

talks about schools in the Protestant area. How should a

nationalist kneel tonight, how -- feel tonight? Do you support that?

I support the housing executive. I think it needs leisure leisure If

there is now the long hand of political influence going into the

heart of the housing executive to see if behave in a a partial way...

If are you saying if. The house, executive has sent out a leaflet to

Protestants only. Listen to what I am saying. The housing exec stif

has sent out a pamphlet to Protestants only. Are they going to

get away with it. This is an example of the long hand of

political influence. All den McGuinness is standing in a

photograph supporting the project. What does he think about this?

there is any abuse of any process, if there is any behaviour that is

partial or selective, if the housing executive... I appreciate

you coming in here tonight, but if you get a transcript of what you

have said, it's all caveats. Tell the people your position. Is this

wrong, yes or no? If... APPLAUSE Anything in our society is

wrong -- if... Let's deal with the question. Anything that is partial

or selective that favours one community, that tries from the

interests against the interests of another, that is wrong. If that is

what this is, then that is wrong. Should this have been issued by the

housing executive because of undue political pressure emanating from

certain political parties, that is wrong. But the housing executive

who over 40 years have tried skilfully to develop better housing

and better housing allocation and that we need to defend the

institution of housing executive because in my view, as this example

might demonstrate, there are people now trying to reach in to a

successful organisation, that served all of you and all your

parents very well over the last 40 years and that is a threat to good

politics, good practice and good housing. Thank you very much.

I want you to keep on talking about this. If the politicians don't talk

about it, here is what you should do, you keep on talking about it,

use twitter, pick up the phone. Call me on the radio tomorrow.

You keep on talking about it, keep on asking the questions.

Together we will get answers. Here is what is still to come on

the show. We speed to the widow of constable Stephen Caroll's widow.

It is time for our investigation of the week. Angela paid a mechanic to

picks her car, but waited so long she took him to the Small Claims

Court for compensation. This is Angela. Her car needed fixing last

year. She took it to Stephen Smith and for �500 cash up front he said

he would fix it. A car expert told us the job she needed should have

taken a couple of hours, but after weeks of waiting, the car still

wasn't fixed. So we shade yet more money to get her car sorted

elsewhere, but Angela wanted the �500 back off Smith. He owed me

money because he wasn't able to fix my car. I went to the Small Claims

Court to try and retrieve that. this, to get her �500 back she

first had to shell out �50 to the court to start the process. A

hearing date is set. Will the court give Angela her �500 back? Despite

being asked to turn up to the court Smith fails to make his debut. So

the judge awards in Angela's favour. I turned up, he didn't. I was

awarded the money. I thought it was that cut and dry really, that

straightforward. But there is a twist. Despite not turning up,

Smith's challenges what the judge decided. The court gives him a new

date. As they give smith a new date, Smith gives them a new address,

number 15 Quay Road. I am here, post man Nolan, the only problem is

number 15 is this. Smith asked for a second chance but doesn't turn up

again. So the judge finds in Angela's favour for a second time.

While I thought it was time for celebration, it was really just the

Because he still doesn't pay. Again. So smith hasn't turned up device, -

- twice and still hasn't paid. So smith should be worried, the law is

about to come down hard on him. No. It's Angela who has to fork out

again to get the enforcement of judgment's office involved. Now, it

is the enforce ment of judgment's job to make sure Angela gets her

money? Will they deliver? This is the enforcement office that spends

Smith what, do they send out a hard man to make him pay up, no, they

send him a letter. It says in the letter if he doesn't pay up they

make take out proceedings against him. They sent it to the wrong

address. Surprise surprise, there's no response from Smith. So what

will the sinister sounding enforcement office do next?

Wait for this. The enforcement office that is meant to help get

Angela her money back, asks her to pay another �133. Angela has two

court judgements in her favour. Should she really have to spend

more money at this point. Smith has got to turn up and explain how he

is going to pay. Do you want the shocker? He doesn't. So, so far,

Angela has spent �200 and has got nothing. Apart from paperwork and

that paperwork is now going to a second wrong across. This is the

house that the letter was delivered to. I have managed to speak to the

family inside. They are camera shy but pretty sure they are not

running a car mechanics business from the front living room. I think

I believe them. Here is a handy guide for our friends in the

enforcement office. This is Smith Oos, this is no so much. But now a

new date is set and if smith makes a fourth no show, he will be

arrested. Who has to personally hand him this bad news? Either

Angela does it or she forks out for a summons server. Guess who will do

it for free. Time to serve the First off, pick up the summons

paperwork. Hello, good to see you. I am here to get the paperwork. I

am going to be serving the summons today. Do you think I am sexy

but you look very well, but... What's happened? It's been taken

care of. Since you have stepped in they have given me a result. When

did you find this out? This morning. Might have phoned me. Isn't it a

bit co incidental after months of Angela having to pay for and do

everything, the enforcement office suddenly track down Smith.

APPLAUSE Earlier I spoke to Trevor Long, the

chief enforcement officer. You are the chief enforcement officer, what

is the point of having an enforce. Office if you just send them a

letter. We do more than send them a letter but there is a whole process

to be followed. My job is to enforce the judgment of the court.

I can't comment on the particular case except to say when we get a

case... Why not? To the day I die I am going to challenge every public

servant I get up against. Because this case is on going. It is not

just about the creditor, I have to take into the consideration the

situation the depor might be in. hasn't paid this woman twice.

have to take into consideration the balance of thaul these things and I

have to make sure debtors rights and responsibilities are taken into

consideration. My job is to enforce the judgment but I have to take all

the facts into consideration. sent it to the wrong address.

of this may be there are issues about postcodes. All I can tell you

is that we are trying to do the best we can, with the information

that is provided to us, by the creditor. It is her fault? I am not

saying it is. I can't get into the details. There are lots of cases

that come to me, I get 20,000 cases a year and sometimes the postcodes

and information that is provided to us is not always fully accurate.

Let me get to the heart of the matter now, this is what some

people might find astonishing, this is a lady, an ordinary person and

gets a court judgment in her favour, you tell her by the way she has to

serve the warrant, not you lot? is not the warrant she serves, it

is part of the process, the conditional order, so if when the

the case is listed the second time and debtor doesn't turn up, then a

warrant can be issued. That person is then brought for interview.

expect her to find this man? That is the situation, that is the

legislation as it stands. Does that need changed? It is not for me to

say. You are the chief enforcement ferks you think it is fair to ask

an ordinary citizen to find these people when you can't find them?

is the way the legislation is. it right? That is the way it is at

the moment. Is it right? That is not for me to say. Do you think

there should be a review, you have been at this a long time?. Other

people have already said that. Our job is to try and engage with these

people and get to grips with it and make sure the ordinary is enforced.

That is what we are there to do. Thank you very much.

If you have a story for us, don't forget the e-mail to send it in to

us. This week, really important story, two men convicted of the

murder of constable Stephen Caroll were brought to justice. He was

killed by a single gunshot wound to the head while attending a call in

Craig of aon. Two people were convicted for their part in the

murder. One was order today search 25 years

in jail while a 17-year-old was sentenced to a minimum of 14 years.

There has been criticism the sentences have been too lenient.

Please welcome Kate Carroll. Thank you so much for coming in. I

know you still find it difficult talking about all of this and I

want to get a real sense and we will talk about the sen sensing

review that is going to happen and you feel the sentence, you were

distraught at if, how is life at the moment, what impact has this

had on you still to this day? feel like I can't move on until

everything has been decided with the sentencing. It's destroyed my

life. It has destroyed my family. My in-laws. Life will never be the

same again for my family. We have spoken on the radio a couple of

times, this is the first time I have met,, I thought there is a

fighter, a woman who is strong, and when I saw you tonight before the

show, you are strong and a fighter, but I also can see in you as a

human being has this has wrecked you. It has, but I will not stop

fighting. That man was my life. My son is my life and my grandchildren,

and I am traying -- trying to -- These people thought this was a big

thing to do, we are are the boys. My husband was a family man. He had

a target on his back going out to work. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week

you have got to be on your guard when you are a policeman or woman.

Part of the discussion that society will have around the sentencing

structure, because Wooton was given a 14 year minimum sentence and the

law at the moment says that the the judge has to take his age into

account. Across the water in England, there is a minimum tariff

if you kill a police officer of 30 years, but that is for an over 21-

year-old. There are two issues, should there be specific

legislation if you kill a police officer, that you get a particular

minimum sentence,, and two, should leniency be given to a 17-year-old

because they are so young. First, his age, 17. The age of consent is

16 and he knew to go out, to drive a car, he knew what he was going

out to do. It was pre-meditated. He drove the get away car. He planned

everything. Along with his cohorts and he was man enough to do that

and I reckon he should be man enough to take the consequences of

that. When you heard minimum tariff 14 years, quha did that do to you?

Actually at the start it didn't register and then in the gallery I

heard a supporter of Wooton say brilliant, that's a result. That's

justice. Justice has been done. I thought to myself justice hasn't

been done where I am, my husband will never be back again. One of

his supporters said that's a result. Yes. I just thought they can live

with that result, but I can't live with the consequences of that

result. I have to live my life on my own because of somebody who

decided to go out and kill a police officer. Basil, should there be the

same sen sense for a 17-year-old, should there be leniency given to a

17-year-old compared to a 22-year- old. I would like to deliver the

answer in two parts. First of all I suspect there is no sentence that

could be passed to those two people that would make up for the loss

that Kate has suffered. When you come to a judge make ago mistake, I

think he did and I am supportive of people who say we need to review

this particular decision. If you take that to the personal situation

that Kate and her family have to deal with, I fully support it. If

you ask me the general question, are there crimes where young people

get sucked into doing bad things by older manipulated people, yes, I do

think that happens. Do I think those older people that are the

brains and manipulators should be punished more severely than the

young people, yes, I do. I want to try and say that what Kate's

husband stood for was the Rule of Law and order and that's really

what we have to try and see in this situation. You understand why I am

saying, I will defend the judge in this case, it is not a case of

whether he made a mistake, he is working within the guidelines, it

is for others to look at that sentence and a judge can only a

judgment on the facts. Kate, give us a sense, because it is really

important, when we are deciding as a society and the law makers are

deciding and this is going to be debated in Stormont on 11th June,

give us a sense of the impact on a family member of a victim. I

remember you telling me the story that it broke my heart when I heard

it, Christmas time. I miss my husband so much that I wanted to be

next to him, to feel him, touch him and I remember going out into my

garden at 4.00 in the morning, I didn't realise it was so cold and

there was snow on the ground, half a foot of snow, and I went out and

got my spade from my shed and I took it, going out the garden gate,

the graveyard is not far away from us, I could have walked there and I

took the spade and I was all for going up to digging down and trying

to feel Steve. That is the impact that had on me. Why? Because I

missed him so much. I just wanted to be with him. It was just the

year after and I missed him and wanted to be there. It nearly

killed me to be honest. To this day? Yes. You keep some of his

clothes beside you? I have his Pj is under my pillow every night. I

change the bed and they go back on again. I have his hair brush, I can

smell that, I keep it in a plastic bag, so I can go up and when I feel

bad I can smell it and get that sense that he's there. The reason I

asked you that, it is in the context of what you have just said,

if there were to be longer sentences for killers like this,

what would it do, would it make any difference, because you can talk as

a victim yourself, would it make a difference? Well, to me, I believe

if you take a life, you should do life, no matter whose life it is.

Whether it is Joe Bloggs or Steve Carroll. If you take a life you

should give up a life. Life is the most precious thing we are

givenment What are you asking the executive to do for you? Just to

rethink their strategies and and come up with something real. Out in

America if you commit a crime in America, they don't deal with you

with a slap on the wrist, they give you a harsh sentence. I think life

should mean life. If you are going to do a crime, you should realise

you are going to have to pay for it. I want people to know tonight that

you are a fighter and one of the things you are doing, where you are

getting the energy from I don't know, you are going to set up a

foundation, tell me why? Because I don't want children to be sucked

into this bigotry. I want to get them see that life is a lot more, I

want them to have more structure in their lives. Children have no

structure in their lives. They need a sense of belonging. What is your

foundation going to do? I am going to have a scholarship, the geckon

of hope, -- beacon of hope. It is try to get people who have less

money or whatever, if these children show willing, we can get

them into college, and the fund will pay for their education for

three years. Where you are getting the energy from, I don't know, but

I am sure everyone wants to thank you for coming in. Thank you so

much. APPLAUSE