Episode 4 The Nolan Show

Controversy as the first private clinic to offer abortions to women

in Northern Ireland opens tomorrow. Thousands are expected to take to

the streets against government cuts in Belfast on Saturday.

Edwina Currie is here to battle it out with the unions.

And trial by tabloid. Christopher Jefferies, hounded by the media

after being arrested in a murder investigation, is here to tell us

Hello and welcome. I know you at home will want to get involved in

this programme tonight. Here's how Tomorrow, the first private clinic

to offer abortions to women in Northern Ireland will open. Run by

Marie Stopes, it will provide terminations within the current

legal framework here. Abortions in Northern Ireland are not illegal

but are very strictly controlled. They can only be carried out to

preserve the life of the mother, or if continuing the pregnancy would

have other serious, long term physical or mental health effects.

Marie Stopes says it will carry out medical, not surgical, procedures

only up to the nine weeks' gestation period. Joining me to

discuss this is Vice-President of Marie Stopes International, Tracey

McNeill. And Bernie Smyth from Precious Life. Good to see you. Why

have you come to an audit arm and? We have come to offer a service

that we know he's needed. We have been inundated from people calling

us and our phone lines have been really busy wanting advice and

counselling and to access what we believe will be a world-class

service on reproductive health and family planning. You're not

offering anything but the NHS does not currently offer? For the first

time we want to offer a service under one roof where people can

easily access that. It is A1 stop shop. You can get advice and

counselling in a purpose-built facility. And we're proud of that

facility, it is in the centre of Belfast and easy to get to. The

main thing we are trying to do is to offer men and women a choice.

what is the problem? When we talk about choices, the unborn child has

no choice. That is what we're talking about tonight, the unborn

child, fully developed. This is a model of a baby of 10 weeks. Marie

Stopes International is well known for performing illegal abortions.

There has been thrown out of different countries and have

boasted about going into countries where abortion is illegal and

performing illegal abortions. not do that. I had worked for Marie

Stopes for a number of years. What we're talking about is offering

choice and as servers that men and women want. If we did not believe

it was needed then we would not have come here. We spent two years

coming back and forth talking to people. Four people have called me

this week saying that they want to help and the servers is really

needed. If they are working within the law, do you still have a

problem with them coming here? Absolutely. Abortion is illegal in

Northern Ireland. Our hospitals already provide clinical treatment.

Many women died because of abortions. And recently one of your

doctor's was struck off because a woman died as a result of an

abortion. The Department of Health have told the show that abortion is

lawful in Northern Ireland when necessary to preserve the life of a

woman or word there is a risk of an adverse effect on her physical and

mental health which is either long- term or permanent. It is in 20

trowels and the health of women is not in danger. We can provide all

that medical care. Our doctors are not failing women here. They

provide all the treatment they need to safeguard health. But it is a

matter of long-term physical or mental health. Those are very rare

cases and our own hospitals deal with these cases. But in those rare

cases can you not at least support the contention that it is lawful.

Two weeks ago I had a number of doctors speaking at Stormont and I

attended a medical conference in Dublin and those doctors from all

over the world to treat women with problem pregnancies all agreed that

there is no medical necessity to destroy the life of an unborn child.

Marie Stopes is not interested in the women are babies but interested

in making money in killing unborn children. We are a charity. So we

do not make a profit. We provide services all over the world. This

is not about profit. If we were to set up profitably we would not have

come here. This is a charity and the fundamental basis of what we do

is to offer choices. We believe, everyone I have spoken to...

that choice is already there because women can already a bale of

the facilities within the NHS. So you then have the charge against

you that you will offer a slightly more of them what is available in

the NHS. Or else why it would you come? We're offering a really

different service. The other day the opening of the clinic was well

publicised. Someone knocked at the door and a couple of very young

girls were there for heard that we were offering a service. They had

no where to go and they had it desperate story. We know the

service is available in the NHS but we think we can provide a different

and a better experience for those women where they can come and have

choices. Services are already readily available in Northern

Ireland. The number travelling to England is actually decreasing.

Well 1000 women for year. Up and that has decreased over the past

number of years. It has decreased by 36%. According to whom?

Department of Health figures. They are dealing with death. God

gives life and the only person who can take life his guard, not

abortion clinics. Abortion is wrong. In all circumstances? In its

circumstances where the life of the mother is not in danger. The police

is speaking for the child? The child has the right to live. There

are other things you can do, there is adoption. Get Marie Stopes out.

Because every Christian will be outside their door of protesting.

That is a guarantee. Look forward to seeing you there tomorrow.

I respect your opinions and we're never going to agree. I am a mother

and have two children. I support people who have different opinions.

But what we want to do for the people of Northern Ireland is to

offer them choice. The people I have listened to, who contact us

and you're desperate for help, they have no way to go. We're not an

organisation that is proportion. We have got a fantastic health care

programme yet and so why do we need Marie Stopes? You're here to make

money. And make us like everybody else. We do not want to be like

everybody else. We want people to have the right to live. What about

the 1000 women per year who do want that choice and have to go across

the water. If they want that choice then they should be counselled to

understand that they it is another opinion involved, that of the child.

The child could be adopted or fostered. In all circumstances?

all circumstances. You have to protect life.

Tell us your story. I am a mother of four children. A

long time ago when I was in my very early twenties and again in my mid-

twenties I had to terminations. I had one on the NHS without any

counselling or help. It was a dramatic decision. It is a

traumatic decision for any woman. The second time I went to Marie

Stopes and had a lot of counselling. It is not the men sitting here

talking about why they did not support the women... I know you

have a personal story. I am aware that the fathers of those children

are not here to defend themselves so let us talk about you and not

brought any inference about the fathers. Well I received a very

good counselling. The councillor said I think you're undecided and

would you like to go away and think about it. At that time I had no

concept that I could actually bring those children into the world and

be a good mother. I made that decision, which is a very difficult

decision of four women to make. It is also difficult to talk about it

publicly because there is a tremendous amount of shame about it.

How did you feel afterwards? the always feel unhappy and upset.

It is a very difficult thing to do. Especially as I went on to have

four more children. And Dean have regrets some days? I do not. I

could not have done it at that time. I believe I have no way to bring

those children up. How could you take that right away from her?

believe that women deserve better than abortion. I believe we have

failed women if we do not support them through a crisis pregnancy. We

want to eliminate the crisis, not a board that child. Yesterday a young

girl from the south of Carland contacted me, very similar. She

went to Marie Stopes three weeks ago... You can tell that story

later. But can you not at least listen to this lady and engage with

I have had an abortion as well, at 18. Just the lady just behind. Get

ahead. I have been working in abortion recovery. Abortion does

affect the men as well. You talk about the long-term lasting effects.

There are long-term lasting -- lasting effects after abortion.

There are thousands of women. I had an abortion when I was 18 and

struggled with it for ten years. Did not realise why. I turned to

alcohol and everything for that. It hit me when I had my first

pregnancy, which was a miscarriage, and my first living daughter,

reading the antenatal books I've realised that six weeks it had a

heart beat, ten weeks fully formed. This is not what I was told when I

had an abortion. I have been helping women voluntarily for 20

years. Let me speak to Geoffrey from the DUP. Are you against

abortion in all cases, no matter what? I support the law as it

stands in Northern Ireland. It is very clear. I do not see any reason

why it needs to change. I see no reason for Marie Stopes to be in

Northern Ireland. There is no service Marie Stopes provides that

is not already provided on the NHS. So you think the law is crystal

clear? Why does your own colleague call it a legal minefield?

I am not sure that that is the case. He is referring to guidelines

aren't pregnancy in Northern Ireland and there have been legal

challenges. There is a traditional review at the moment in the High

Court. Do you know how long Northern Ireland has been waiting

for those guidelines? Since 2004. Eight years. Yes, and if you want

my opinion, the law is absolutely clear on this. It was not my party

or any political party, and bear in mind all of the military -- main

political parties at Stormont are of the same view on this. The law

does not need to change. We did not seek clarification. It was the so-

called pro-choice organisations that went to the court and said, we

need guidance on what it means to terminate a pregnancy in Northern

Ireland. I do not believe we need that because the law is clear.

have Bernie's Nick saying it is illegal in Northern Ireland and

Marie Stopes saying in some senses it is legal. How clear is that?

Ernie is correct. There are only very narrow circumstances in

Northern Ireland where abortion is allowed. As are the Department of

Health, when they have said, quote Kohlert when it is necessary to

preserve the life of the woman or there is a risk of real or serious

adverse effect on her physical or mental health, long term or

permanent. OK? That is what the Department of Health is saying. So

is a woman is raped, Jeffrey Donaldson, can she have an abortion

lawfully? In Northern Ireland? the clinician, the doctor treating

that Bormann, determines that there is a risk to her life or to her

long-term mental and physical well- being in those circumstances, a

woman who has been raped can have an abortion in Northern Ireland.

That is very clear. Do you accept that his career? I know if a

woman's life is in danger all medical treatment will be given to

her and if she has a psychological problem I do believe psychiatric

care is vitally important. I have been involved... But the question

is this. Do you a Greek that if a lady has been raped that abortion

is an option? -- do you agree? disagree with abortion but I agree

with medical treatment. The law here is very clear. Abortion is

legal but what is illegal his medical treatment. Abortion is

illegal if a Boorman has been raped. I am trying to give you an

opportunity for me to be very precise about what you think. Do

you think abortion is legal will be illegal if a lady has been raped?

have explained myself. Abortion is illegal. Medical treatment is

available. A You have the biggest party in Northern Ireland saying it

is lawful. We are talking about language here. If a mother's life

is in danger she will retrieve -- receive that treatment. Marie

Stopes are not interested in health but in destroying an unborn child.

Jeffrey Donaldson, why don't we have the guidelines waiting from

2004, devolution in Northern Ireland for many, many years now,

the guidelines still are not published. Your Health Minister

saying it is a legal minefield. It might be, it might be difficult to

publish them, but publish them. I remind you they were published,

and they went out to consultation and because of the pub --

consultation responses that came back, the guidelines were revised.

They were published in draft. there was a consultation and

because of the responses that came back there were revisions made to

the guidelines. There is not political agreement at the moment

at Stormont on the exact nature of those guidelines. I understand it

is not a black-and-white issue. How long have we been waiting for law

in Northern Ireland around this for the guidelines to, Surrey, around

this in Northern Ireland? How many years? The guidelines. The law. I

know you are trying to take me down the cul-de-sac about the guidelines

but I am going to keep concentrating on the law because it

is the law that matters. The law is very clear. The law states the

circumstances in which an abortion can occur in Northern Ireland. The

guidelines do not change the law, Stephen. Not one iota. All they do

is provide guidance to clinical practitioners who may be involved

in a decision about whether or not an abortion should take place under

the law. I knew saying there is no need for the guidelines? I have

said that earlier in the programme. We do not meet the guidelines, but

the Family Planning Association and other so-called breakthroughs

groups went to the High Court, demanded guidance and the high

court ruled there should be guidelines. I take a different view.

Yes, but you are a Democrat. We have a guest from the Royal College

of midwives. You are on the advisory panel of Marie Stopes.

Let's just get that out there straight away. A need for

guidelines, the DUP say no need. think if you spoke to the 1,500

midwives in Northern Ireland many of them would say guidelines would

be extremely helpful and indeed necessary. Why is that?

guidelines do two things, they provide a very clear exposition of

the law and the law is not clear. Not everybody... It is extremely

clear. My 12-year-old could understand the law. Can I finish?

There are a number of people in Northern Ireland, including nurses

and midwives working in this difficult area who are unclear

about the law. So the first part of the guidelines are an exposition of

the law to make it clear. Geoffrey is right in his summary of the law.

The second part of the guidelines are standards and guidance for good

practice, things that say that a woman should be seen by two

different doctors. That she should be given written and verbal

information. That she should sign a consent form. I am sorry, no. This

is extraordinary. You reckon they should be two doctors. The

Department of Health have told us under Northern Ireland law the

consent of only one doctor is required. I say to if you are

looking at guidelines for good practice. It covers good practice

in the workplace. The to be fair, it does say good practice requires

two. I am not sure many people in Northern Ireland know that staff in

the health service have no statutory right in Northern Ireland

to opt out of caring for women having an abortion. The guy it with

your hand up. Is this conversation about the law or religious belief?

That laws -- APPLAUSE I was raped when I was 13.

I did not know I was pregnant. My parents quite quickly arranged for

me to have an abortion with the help of a clergyman, and I was

taken off to Liverpool to a Marie Stopes clinic, 42 years ago.

what age? 13. I can say that I do not think abortion is the answer. I

think that I was persecuted in having the abortion. I got over the

rape, I got over the trip to Liverpool did not mean anything to

me, but I suffered for 37 years, until I went through abortion

recovery. Suffered in what way? was a very sad and lonely and

thought about my baby all the time. I asked my GP for help and he sent

me off to a national health psychologist and I spoke to them

about my inability to be able to get over the grief of others

subsequent deaths in the family like my granny and a colleague and

other people who had died. I could not get over that. I could not seem

to step over that Mark and grieve properly and I did not make the

equation between my grief of losing my child's, and I called him

Michael when I went through my abortion recovery, just three years

ago, but for 37 years I've really did suffer and it let me down many

roads... Let me let Tracey respond. First of all, that is an incredible

story and I think you have been amazingly brave to share that with

My heart goes out to you and that is why we want to do what we want

to do. That is why on the first day that people knew we were in Belfast,

two very young girls came to the doorstep asking for help. What I

think will be successful is that when we have offered a lot more

family planning, a lot more contraception, and those women have

come and had counselling and support and -- in a very non-

judgmental way, they have not been forced into making those decisions

by others... I received my abortion recovery... We have free

counselling. Can I say thank you for telling a story tonight. At the

heart of this, for and against the debate, there are women with very

personal stories. Adele has had two abortions. The journey she has

travelled on on this issue may just surprise you. Abortion is a very

personal but there are always different views. Listen to have.

At 25 I had an unplanned pregnancy. I have just come out of a

relationship and I panicked and felt like I had a problem I needed

to fix. I was in Northern Ireland and just went to the Yellow Pages,

found Marie Stopes genic and made arrangements as fast as I could do

go to London. I remember when I went to the Marie Stopes clinic

being quite angry with the protesters but since then, I feel

very differently now and I wished that I had listened to them. I did

sink into a kind of depression and had a profound sense of loss. Five

years later, I became pregnant and my partner did not want me to have

the baby. I had my third pregnancy when others 33 and it was only

because I had the support of a close family member who gave me the

support and encourage me that I could have the baby that stopped me

from having a third abortion and I am so thankful to them because my

daughter has been the best thing that has ever happened to me in my

life. I can only talk freely about it because I have been through a

recovery programme. Some women find themselves in very difficult

circumstances but I really truly believe that an abortion is going

to damage them. I know not just from my experience but from talking

to other women who have also suffered from a portion that it is

not an answer. It is important for women who have lived it to have a

It you want to comment on that story you can get in touch. Suzanne

Lee, you also have a story. I'm now 23 and when I was 22 I find

out I was pregnant. I am a student and I normally live in Dublin. When

I found out I was pregnant I have quite severe mental health issues.

I grew up in a household where my mother did not particularly want me.

So I am as determined that when I had a child then that child was

going to be wanted and would have the best possible life. When I got

pregnant I could not give the child that life. So because abortion is

illegal in Ireland I ordered some pills from the internet. I did not

go to a clinic. I had to get those pills delivered to the Lords, you

cannot get them delivered to the south because Customs would seize

them. -- to the north. One they arrived, and I waited two days to

take them because it is quite an ordeal to go through. You take two

different sets of pills. The first date was fine, I felt normal. The

second day I had severe cramping and a lot of beating. I was

pleading for four weeks. But because I terminated my pregnancy

at six weeks it was nothing worse than a very bad period. To say that

it was a Ambon child when all I did was to be lead. Do you think you

did the right thing? I think so. It disgusts me when I see people in

front of me who believe that I should spend my life in prison

because of what I did. That is the law from 1861.

I do feel really sorry for you that you had to go through that for

yourself and there was no one to support you. That is what the pro-

life movement is about. We believe you deserve better. You're not

dealing with this very well. You do not think she had the right to

choose for result? We're talking about another life and the need to

provide better services. Such as Marie Stopes are doing. Well I can

only say that we do care for people like you. Who have had an abortion.

We care for you now. We have listened to women who have had

abortions. Sometimes that Post abortion depression does not leave

them. Why are you so angry? I have listened to people calling me a

murderer. I have been called the Devil's child by people in your so-

called Movement. I only know people who care generally for women. And

they support that every day. We support women financially. There is

a great movement supporting women. Father Tim Bartlett, thank you for

coming in. What would you say to Suzanne tonight? I think we have to

accept as a society that we have a duty of care to everyone who finds

themselves in this predicament. Nobody is suggesting it is an easy

situation or an easy decision. We have to respond to that with

compassion. However there is also another issue and that is that

society also has an interest and a responsibility to protect all the

life. There's no more fundamental right down the right to life. So

the Challenge is how do we provide the best possible care. And I think

we have failed women who find themselves in that situation. I ask

if we cannot do better in the 21st century in terms of psychiatric

care and counselling. Do you support of the law as it currently

stands or would you make it even tougher? It is a very simple

principle. We have to defend and uphold the fundamental principle of

the right to life, no matter what. Can I bring in some real examples.

If the baby was going to be born and it was clear, and these are

isolated incidents, but it was clear that the baby would not have

a brain, does that child, she insists that the mother would

deliver that child it is against her which? Those kind of situations

are very complex medical situations. And our doctors are trained to

respond appropriately. Treating each of the two people as

individual patients. As well as having choices we also have

responsibilities. That is one we have laws to defend fundamental

values. And those enable us to make hard decisions. You asked about

guidelines, the more fundamental concern is how can it private

medical institution establish itself in a Nordic Carland without

any regulation? I hope that that situation is a dressed very quickly.

And the only course we have is for the police to get involved and

monitor the situation. I just wondered what your opinion would be

on under-aged people coming in for an abortion? Do you mean -- you

need parental consent? The service that we are offering is

for women aged over 16. In order to access the service we need to have

proof of identity. But what we want is to be there to help these people

so it that we cannot provide that service, and we are clear about the

law, then we can... The question is if there under-aged, do they need

parental consent in your clinic at all times? May well not treat

anyone under the age of parental consent. They need to be 16 or over.

You have done that in other countries. You have moved in under

the guise of family planning and then you go on to break the law.

You deny breaking the law. One second. I'm glad you have raised

that because I had been asked that a lot and I want to be clearer

about that. The nurses and doctors who are all from your department,

they all live and work here, we're really cure but the law and will

not do anything in terms of breaking the law. Ladies and

gentlemen we have to leave it there. Please thank all my guests.

You can give your opinion on our social media sites. Still to come

on the programme. Edwina Currie takes on the unions planning

another march against government cuts.

Now, on Christmas Day 2010 the body of Joanna Yeates was found,

partially hidden by snow, at the edge of a quarry three miles from

her Bristol flat. The discovery concluded an eight day police

search. In March 2011, Joanna's neighbour Vincent Tabak admitted to

her murder and was subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment.

But one man whose face will forever be synonymous with the case is

Joanna's landlord Christopher Jefferies. He endured trial by

media, and was dubbed "weird", "strange", "creepy", and a "peeping

Tom" after being arrested during the investigation. Despite being

completely vindicated, Christopher Jefferies still bears the scars of

that terrible ordeal. Ladies and What is it like to hear those

descriptions about you, completely untrue? Completely untrue. And

certainly when I first had to read these stories in newspapers, it

came as the most tremendous shock. In fact the day that I did read

them for the first time I was extremely glad that I was not going

to be alone that evening. That I had already arranged to go out to

dinner with some friends because it had such a shattering and

terrifying effect. Would it be beneficial perhaps if we started

when he got that knock on the door from the police. It was 7:01AM

morning, entirely out of the blue. I thought that perhaps and

neighbour had been taken ill. So I went and opened the door and there

were a couple of policemen saying, we need your help, we are arresting

you on suspicion of the murder of Joanna Yeates. Completely out of

the blue. What happens to your mind? He'd go completely numb. You

cannot even think of anything at all. You're just concentrating on

what is happening at that particular moment. You cannot even

imagine what might happen in the next five minutes. And then you're

escorted off to the police station. What I've learnt from your story,

which is intriguing, whilst the press are hammering you, you do not

know. Your lawyer is not telling you. For the three days that I was

in custody I had no idea that anyone was in the slightest bit

interested in what was happening to me. And when I was released from

custody and went to stay with friends, they also took a degree

protected me from knowledge of what had been in the newspapers. They

said, there are all kinds of terrible things that have been

mentioned, you do not want to know at the moment after what you have

just been through. So it was really only when the lawyers said, we want

you to read some of these stories, so we can make absolutely certain

that there is not an iota of truce. Let us just remind ourselves, what

the press was saying about you. That was in the Sun newspaper. The

strange Mr Jefferies. Hare apparently coverage for the purpose.

Was your hair that colour? Once I did use an Henan shampoo which gave

my hair and very slight blue tint. But nothing remotely such as

appeared in the Sun newspaper in that photograph. You are smiling

now, but to and see that, how do you feel about the press and about

that particular headline? It is totally irresponsible and totally

self destructive of your self- esteem when you see that for the

first time. Of course there were many newspapers. The Daily Mirror,

let us have a look at what they printed. Suspect is a peeping Tom.

Apparently they got hold of rumours that I was supposed to spy on

tenants. Again it something which had not an iota of truth in it. And

they build up this weird picture of someone who was possibly as serial

murderer because they had been an unsolved murder 30 years before

this particular merger happen. your main emotion one of anger, for

fear? After the numbers had worn off I started to feel extremely

angry that I had been arrested. And then after I had been released, I

started to feel extremely angry about the destruction of my

personality that had taken place. While I have been in custody. I

described it as having been like a kind of rape because that is how it

felt at that time. He also talk vividly about when you're brought

into the police station, the fact that they take away all your

possessions. It feels as if you're being stripped absolutely fair. You

no longer know very dull are. Because nothing that has been

connected with your identity is there any longer. You have put in a

kind of prison suit and there you are just absolutely naked and

defenceless and quite vulnerable. What kind of questions where they

asking you know when you work in their? They just went over and over

again... Is it aggressive questioning? It is extremely long.

The first day, the questioning went on significantly after midnight.

Partly because I insisted that they carried on, because I did not want

to have to go through more of it the following day. Although I did

have to go through it the following day. They just went over and over

Mike movements. At the key times that this poor girl had disappeared.

And then you are released, and a guests -- I guess you're having to

face the reality, totally unfair, of no smoke without fire. That is

what one feels, yes. I do not really know -- how one would have

coped if I had not had the support of friends. I had to stay with

friends for three months after I was released from custody because I

could not go back to my own flat. Partly because the police had

removed all my clothing and some other possessions so all that I had

was what I stood up in. And of course the media were desperate to

get hold of me and interview me as soon as I was released. So I had to

lead a kind of cloak-and-dagger I am intrigued to know if there

were any close friends who abandoned you at that stage. There

were no close friends who abandoned me but it is true that when

something like that happens you know who your friends are and you

are aware that there are one or two people that you thought were

friends who because you have been portrayed in very unflattering

light state conveniently in the background. When you suffer a

trauma like that, I reckon that is what that is, a major Dromore in

your life, if -- former in your life, do you ever fully recover and

get back to the person you were? You are certainly never the same

person again simply because of what has happened, and the memory of

what has happened. So how can you still feel it now? How are you

different, psychologically? suppose because I am always aware

at the back of my mind there may still be people out there who I

come across who think, oh yes, there is that the weird man who was

accused of murdering one of his tenants. There is probably

something a bit fishy about him, perhaps we do not want to have

anything to do with him. This is probably an unfair question that I

will ask it. You have changed your appearance. Is that you are giving

in? No. You were happy looking like that until they suggested that was

the look of a weird man. friends I went to stay with first

after I was released from custody said, you have got to change your

appearance because as soon as you go out of the stores, everybody is

going to recognise you. Everybody is going to be chasing after you.

Somebody is going to ring up the media, the press are going to be

here. It is for your own protection. What is your view, then, on the

press? Your gut instinct view. Of these two discussed widely with

Leveson. I am part of the press. Something has certainly got to

change and I hope and expect that Lord Justice Leveson is going to

come out with some proposals for independent surveillance of what

the press is doing, because certainly self-regulation has just

not worked over the past decades. The thing is, you got through it,

and the really scary thing is some people might not have. I entirely

agree. A relative has actually said to me that she knows somebody who

almost certainly would have been destroyed if they have had to go

through that experience. Did you ever get close? Did you ever

contemplate... I think simply because I had to remain on police

bail for such a long time, nine weeks after I was released from

custody, and so I was still technically a suspect, I got a very,

very low indeed during that period. I do not think I have ever felt

quite so vulnerable and quite so depressed. You are a very strong

man. Thank you for coming to Northern Ireland to tell a story.

Thank you. -- to tell your story. For let's get a quick reminder of

all the subjects we are talking about tonight, how you can get in

Sarah in Belfast on Twitter says it is a disgrace the media are allowed

to destroy any man's life. Gary says this story is a warning to

anyone who says the tab -- believes the tabloids. The press have a lot

to answer for, says Michael. Next up, trade union chiefs are calling

for people to take to the streets of Belfast this Saturday to

register their disgust at Government cuts, with similar

marches planned for London and Glasgow, the unions claimed the

cuts are hurting people and damaging the economy. Here is

Bumper Graham from NIPSA and the former MP Edwina Currie. Edwina

Currie, these cuts, people have no small Brickell room. They have no

more room to actually cope with any more money buying -- being taken

out of their lives. We are talking on a day when it has been announced

that unemployment is down in the country as a whole. It is up in

Northern Ireland. We have more people in work now. 71 % of the

population. Things are beginning to move. Inflation has come down as

well. Very good news. I know that people are going to march on Sunday

and that they are sincere and genuine. Saturday. Sat today.

you seriously going to fly into Northern Ireland and talk to us

about the good employment figures across the water? The problem in

Northern Ireland is that you are much too dependent on the public

purse, and taxpayers' money, and the problem is that that has

stifled the natural competitiveness, the natural entrepreneurs we are

seeing in other places. CHANTING. Whoever is shouting, week

cannot see you and we cannot hear you say if you put your hand up, we

will come to you in a second. are not going to have marches...

Let's have the debate. Let's just stop. Being abused...

What we have... What we have... cannot hear you. One second. There

is one choice. If you sit down, you can stay. If you do not sit down

immediately you are out of the studio. What about the 10

suicides...! Fine. I would like you to leave the studio for just so

that these people who have come It is a real pity that hundreds of

people coming here to actually have a debate and you have three people

who think they can take over the studio. We are not going to do it.

We are going to continue this debate Right Here Right Now.

real chance to protest is on Saturday. That chance will be shown

by hundreds of thousands of workers, the unemployed, the sick, the poor,

all those being attacked by the Conservative Party and their allies

in the Liberal Party. The IMF last week said they had got it wrong.

The austerity was doing more damage to the economy. If the IMF has said

they have got it wrong, surely the British Government can wake up and

its Malby coffee. I do not mean the Starbucks coffee to give more money

to the tax avoiders. You are getting change in Northern Ireland

already. In the United Kingdom as a whole there are about 3 million

registered companies and that number is going up at -- all the

time. In Northern Ireland you have about 40,000. You are too depended

on the state and public money but it is rising. East you compare the

number of businesses in Northern Ireland with this time last year it

is 2,500 more now than it was then. In the month of September alone,

over 200 new businesses were registered in Northern Ireland. BT

is actually happening. Please do not march. That is the worst

possible image you can give. That is a message you are going to give

to inward investment. We will march with dignity. They will not come

here if you keep marching. We will march with pride and dignity on

Saturday to show that there is... Have his order at the people...

we believe the private sector... How? You do not do that white

culling in public sector. You are taking money out of the economy

which means people are not spending money in the shops. That is why our

stores are closing, because there is no disposable income. By taking

public servants out of their work, paying them less, you close the

economy down. I am determined that we continue the show as normal

tonight. There is a lady here. would just like to say... Do not

stand up and start screaming at me! No, well, it depends! I would like

to say I agree with these gentlemen up here. You have Edwina Currie

coming from London. I do not live in London. You are serving their.

cannot. You are actually sitting there and you are giving figures.

In Northern Ireland there is one in five people in poverty. That has

grown with the recession. This austerity measures, once they come

in, it makes no difference... It will not make one iota of

difference. They have made their mind up. Why aren't using Northern

Ireland should do? The way I look at it, personally, we are the

people who put them in the decision that they are in now. But you

didn't really. We can take them out again. The whole point is, what you

can do is you can have expectations from your local politicians here in

Northern Ireland. Car and off it. You know exactly -- come off it. Do

you know the price of a loaf of bread? She is asking you a question.

Do you know how much a loaf of Edwina, will we go for 50-50 also.

Does anybody here in this audience actually run a business in Northern

Ireland? This young guy that. started my own business with help

from the Prince's Trust. I am importing from China. Ladies and

gentlemen, he started his own business. Well done. Another young

gentleman here. Government cuts Becky bringing in. It is really

hard... Just keep talking to me. is extremely hard and it is only

through the help of family and friends I have been able to do it.

How long ago...? About six months. Is it going OK? Yes. Well done. Can

I just say, I am sorry that because those people up there were talking

I could not hear -- give you more time to talk about a young citizen

in this country who can stand up on his own two feet and do it. Classes

for coming in tonight. Why are we even discussing cuts at the moment?

When you consider that benefit fraud for example costs the

Government �1 billion, in 2010, compare this to �35 billion of tax

evasion, tax avoidance. The problem in this country is not those at the

bottom who are cheating the system. It is those at the very top. We

have a Government who are saying we are all in this together and then

goes and cuts the top rate of tax to 45 % and there is planning a

further cut to 40%. There is no plan to cut to 40%. 45 % next year.

You would know, Stephen. You are probably paying those rates of tax.

Do not U-turn on me as well! This Government is a Government of 18

out of 29 millionaires in the Cabinet. What do they know about

anything? Do you think that our local administration here has any

leverage to represent the people of Northern Ireland across the water?

The fact of the matter is local administration is not taking their

duties seriously because all they are talking about his cutting

corporation tax, refusing to bring in, for example, they did not make

the tough choice to bring in water charges and they have a cap on

rates. They could raise revenue here. You are simply proving what I

said that you are too dependent on public money. 11 of bread is 80p,

incidentally. Let me say something else. The Conservative Government

said that this was about cutting the deficit, and you have just

driven a point. This is nothing to do with the deficit. What you are

talking about is the public sector. Take Sweden, for example. OK. We

have to stop this show now. Can I just say this, when I wake up in

the morning and I Emperor this up - - presenting at 9am and I tell you