Episode 5 The Nolan Show

This programme contains strong language coming up on tonight's

Nolan Show. We go undercover in Belfast to investigate why legal

highs are still being sold in shops Boxing legend Frank Bruno is here

to share the highs and lows of his incredible life story. Are our 10-

year-olds too young to be criminals? We will be debating a

proposed change to the age of Hello there. How are you doing?

Welcome along. You are are with BBC One in Northern Ireland. We have a

packed studio tonight. Of course, we want you at home to be able to

get involved as well. That is why we give you lots of ways to get in

Now, our first story tonight, over recent years a major concern for

parents has been legal highs, put simply, people able to buy over the

counter mind-altering substances. There's a question to ask, why

people would do this to themselves since the dangers are so stark?

There is another question, should the shops who sell this stuff be

able to do so ease -- easily. There is some strong language in this

film. For years now callers to the Nolan radio show have been

describing how substances known as legal highs have ruined their lives.

This drug has destroyed my sister. They mimick the effects of illegal

drugs but are available to bylawfully on our high streets.

They may look innocent but hardened users of illegal drugs describe

them as "powerful and addictive." Coming off heroin was a doddle to

coming off legal highs. This man, who we will call Paul, said he

suffered from depression and paranoia as a result of using a

legal high powder. You don't sleep for days. You don't eat. It's a

party drug. People don't know what they are putting into their body.

They are ending up in hospital. There is no telling what is in it.

So, how are shops selling this stuff lawfully? Currently, under

our law system, if someone sells a product that affects how you think

and feel they are under heavy scrutiny. They must send those

products to be tested over a period of time to be able to see what are

the short-term, medium and long- term effects of that substance. If

an organisation sells it under the guys of "not for human con sums"

they are exempt. They don't have to do testing procedures at all.

Manufacturers are labelling their products as bath salts, collector

items, plant foods and, shoe deodoriser. Can the shoms claim

that is really what they are selling them as? We visited a view

So, we did exactly what the sales assistant suggested. One of the

first sites you find on Quicksilver altra where someone writes. I can

honestly say this is the most pleasant coc-like feeling I've ever

had. It doesn't sound like a collector's item to me. He has an

interesting explanation for the We asked the owner of the shop, how

they justify selling these But, they did not specifically

comment on what their sales assistant had told us. In another

shop, we asked for Quick Silver, A little bit stronger? That is not

something you would usually hear when buying a bath salt or

collector's item, as the product is marked. We were told that the

We had the substance he sold us tested and found it contained the

illegal Class B drug amphetamine. We put this to the owner of the

shop. We have heard nothing back. When these products are found to

contain banned drugs the police can act. They are frustrated they can't

do more to stop the sale of all these substances. If the product in

question neither breaches the Misuse of Drugs Act, nor the

Medicines Act, it is a difficult area for us. Our hands are rather

tide. That is why we need more robust measures. Instead of banning

substances, one by one, as we do here, other countries have a more

streamlined approach. South of the border, shops selling legal highs

have almost disappeared, since it became a crime to sell any psycho

active substance that is not licenced as a medicine. We need

tighter controls around the sales of these products. If there is no

legitimate use and they are suspected of causing harm to humans

if consumed, which is the case, we need to impose a blanket ban on

them. While a debate goes on over a blanket ban, former users, like

Paul, say every day the shops are open, customers play Russian

roulette with their health. What worries me is, I went into it with

my eyes wide open, but there are people going in not knowing. And,

taking it and obviously they are ending up in hospital. They are

dangerous. Full stop. Well, one lady who knows the heartache which

legal highs can cause is Shirley Campbell, who is with me now.

Shirley's son Lee took his own life after he was taking legal highs he

was 17 years of age. Thank you so much for coming in. I can only

imagine how you feel when you are watching that? It hurts. Very gut

wrenching. I just can't believe things like that... Nothing has

quitened down. It seems to have escalated more than anything. I

don't understand how nothing has been put a cap on it. I would like

to understand, through our time together tonight tonight, Shirley,

just, first of all, the impact that these legal highs had on your son,

it was methadone? Yes, it was. I should point out. What we filmed

there, it is nothing to do with Met drome. It's an indication of the

legal highs can have. Shirley's son isn't around any more because he

took some of these substances. When did you first notice something was

wrong? I would say about two-and-a- half to three months before he lost

his life. It hit him very, very quickly. Did he change much when he

took them? He did, very much so. He lost a powerful lot of weight.

Stupid wee things like things missing out of the house. Being a

wee bit edgey. The eyes go dark. I mean, the pupils in his eyes just

went completely black and... His jaw started cracking and, you know,

you would have said "Lee stop grinding your jaws." And "that's

just the way I am and that that's how I do things now." So quickly I

wasn't expecting to face what I faced. Did you know what the cause

was? At that stage, no. His father would have known more about it.

Would have got a lot more out of him. He told me it was all herbal.

That whoever was supplying him told him 2 was - it was herbal. It was

non-addictive. He could come off it any time. It was just something to

give him a quick high that blow wasn't doing him any good. As mum

you were telling him, "Son, don't take this, it's dangerous?" Yeah,

they don't listen. It was "I will come off it", then the weekend

comes, back out with the mates, on with it. I'm not saying all his

mates did take it, but... At what stage did he start to really

deteriorate, did you see a big change? The weight fell off him,

very, very quickly. I started noticing a distinctive smell. It

was... It wasn't a normal smell. Even when he showered or anything

like he would still come out with a very... Deathly smell. I just

wouldn't know how to describe it. I thought - no, here's me, things

just couldn't be this bad, you know, I tried talking to him. He just

wouldn't, but coming up to the final end, yes, he broke. He just

told me, he begged me. This is your son we are looking at now. Begged

me for help. He said, "Mum, I can't take it no more ." He says, "I need

There is something you can achieve tonight and it is to send a signal

to any young person, I do not care what age you are, if you are

prepared to take the risk to take that stuff, or if you are selling

it, tell me about your son and baking you, what impact it did

these drugs have won a human being? He just did not know whether he was

coming or going. He got totally lost. He held his head... It was as

if something had taken over his mind to. He just lost his whole way

of thinking... He could not sleep, he was restless. He did not know

whether he was coming or going. He said to me, mummy, please help me.

You do not understand how bad this is. He -- I said if you trust me,

we will help you through this. I think at that stage, I had put him

out of the house because I had given him an ultimatum, the drugs

or his home. He went out for a couple of weeks but wanted to come

home. I said OK. We got him home and... He said he was off the drugs

from the Friday night, I think it was, and I picked him up on a

Saturday morning, he was with his friends and I looked at him and I

said, you are not the same person. He said I promise you I have not

been on anything. It was on the Sunday where his father had come

home from work early and found him looking for a rope. We sat and we

talk to him, did not give him a lecture because it was the last

thing anyone wants to hear when they are going through a bad time.

We asked if he owed any money and he said No. We had a Mother's Day

dinner. We got our last Mother's Day dinner with him. He went in and

he laid down on the sofa, he gave us his mobile phone and he said, do

not let me have it, I do not need to contact anyone. I need to get

through this. I said, what about going to the Dr? He said he would

do anything. It was not to be? Bruno Senna. He died about three RS

after seeing the doctor. -- No. I came home and found them. -- found

him. I cannot stress enough that this drug at that stage was legal.

It was what was being described as a legal highs. It is exactly like

these legal highs. These new substances, what they do is be

changed the compound of them slightly, call it something else

and they sell it to young people, they sell it to people of all ages

and then sometimes it kills them. What do you think of the type of

people who sell this stuff? Not a lot. You can call them murderers,

because that is exactly what they are doing. They are selling stuff

that they know people are getting addicted to and No There is no

other way out. They are acting within the lot. A -- law. It is not

a legal, it says on the packets, not for human consumption. There

are still selling it. There are people out there who are getting

away with it. This is not a programme tonight work I am having

a go at the Assembly and asking the MLAs what they are doing about it,

I am saying to us all as a society, including our administration in

Stormont, what are we doing about it? If you look a collectively at

all we can do, what they did it in the south, in Dublin, southern

Ireland, they actually made it illegal to sell substances which

mimicked the likes of cocaine or speed and therefore these shops and

proprietors could not get around it by just altering the compound

slightly. What are we doing in Northern Ireland? Pastor Brian

Madden, where are you. --? things. I find this very emotional

but I'm also very angry. I think she is a very gracious cleat the --

lady, these are murderous parasites who are selling the stuff. I deal

with a lot of people who are addicted to the substances.

Incidentally, some of the shops that you visited, they seem to have

been is shut down of. Let us not name any of these shops. I would

not do that. I am not sure of the legal implications. For some reason,

they're not getting the whole debate and testing it, it is being

altered every few months. The lives I visit are ruined lives, children

who are depressed, I have buried some of them, I have visited their

parents... To any parents at there, I am involved in a group, we have

rehabilitation centres all around the UK and we will help anyone we

can. It we can let your parents know if her children are taking the

stuff. The how bad is the scene around these type of drugs in

Northern Ireland? Be it is really bad. We do work on Friday night and

most of the young people have experimented, are taking this..

They will take it for the cake and they will take it because they

think it is the legal -- cake. We pick up the pieces. The guys in

power need to do what they have done in Dublin. If it is not of

used medically, it should be banned. I think I talk to you about this a

few years ago and we are still talking about it. Are we that far

behind? Just up at the back there. Hallow. You say you are not having

a go. I think you should be having a go at them. They should be

sitting there with you explaining why they are not changing the law.

It is complicated. They would argue it is the responsibility of the

Home Office perhaps. Do something about it! Make an attempt. Let us

see that they are doing something. I am involved in a youth group in

Ballyclare and we have had first- hand experience in this. Perhaps

through a stronger drug but my concern would be that these legal

highs lead on to something stronger. There is a man there in the front

row. Just wait a like at the microphone to. I am sure your son

would have benefited from support. There are organisations out there

who are at their to help the youngsters. All of us should know

that medicines, no matter where they are dispatched from, can be

used and abused. On many occasions I have no one people who have been

prescribed medicines and they do not want them, but the Chemist will

still give them to them. This is not about a chemist. This is staff

that is being described as bath salts and shoe polish. People are

walking end up and getting best. Some of you at home are risking

theSo by taking this stuff. This lady has come here to tell her that

her son died. And why? Because he got gripped by the same substances

that you reckon you will get away with. The chemist is there, you

should check with him and then go for support. I am sure most young

people do not have anything to do with drugs, it is the older people

trying to make a quick buck and they are selling it. Young people

are responsible and can look after each other and they are more

educated than last. Lots of details on the screen about how you can get

in touch. What are you thinking? am crying, Stephen. Do you know

why? My sister's daughter killed herself. She had two beautiful

girls. They had been taking these legal highs? Yes. We did not know.

One had a child of four years old. If you do not stand up, someone

like yourself, if they do not stand up and stop this... To any young

person out there, I would say please, look at what you are doing

to your beautiful wife. Thank you for your call. You talk about me

standing up to these people, it is not about me, it is about as a

society, we are a collective in Northern Ireland and that does

include the very fine and decent politicians as well. It is about

what we as a society are going to do about this. I want to give you

the last word, what to say to any young person taking these? They

have a right to say no. Even going back when my son was in primary

school, he was even offered drugs in primary school, so it is not

down to the parents, it is down to the kids as well. Can I say thank

you for coming in? Gave her a round of a clause. -- applause. Lots of

details on the screen if you want to engage in the discussion. Still

to come. Mauritania roles too young to be criminals? We will be

debating a proposed change to the age of criminal responsibility

shortly. My next guest became a household

name when he won the WBC heavyweight title in 1995 but over

the last decade, Frank Bruno's success in the ring has been

overshadowed by his battle with mental illness. First sectioned

into 1003 following months of depression associated with the

winding up of his boxing career and the breakdown of his marriage, he

was subsequently diagnosed as having a bipolar disorder. This

year, his family intervened twice to have him treated in secure a

mental health units. He has since criticised his treatment by the NHS

saying his hospitalisation made him feel worse not better, please

welcome Frank Bruno. Hello. Thank you. Let me see the size of those

hands! Not much more difference, is at? A bigger difference. I

guarantee I will be nice. You are so kind to! You are very kind.

just want to sit and listen to you laugh or might! A -- all night. You

turned professional in 1982 and you were cutting out a reputation for

yourself and then in 1989, you went up against Mike Tyson. Yes.

scary was it? Be it was pretty scary, but it was my profession.

When you first got into this job, I suppose it was very scary. I had to

get on with it. It was not too scary. Mike Tyson was a monster!

wasn't an alligator that, or a blubbering or a gorilla. He is just

a human. He was no more of a monster than the or you. How do you

hide when you are in a boxing ring, you are fears? You have got to have

a certain amount of fear. You do, but if you had too much fear it you

would never leave the dressing Room. Your heart is pumping a little bit

faster than normal. Can you share with us if you really were

confident that you could take that powerhouse down? Out to mean's had

you any real worries that he would knock you out? Boxing is boxing.

That is my chosen profession. I know what will I am letting myself

in for. It was normal. It would be more scary if I had to be in your

seat and I had to read from the autocue and get everything right.

That would scare me more. Five very rarely get the autocue right!

would get very scared. It is miles When had you your career what

happened up here was really, really important You had to be in total

control of your mind, right? A-lot of the time. Definitely, when

someone is punching you in the head or the belly, you are hoping they

don't get you in the tools, do you know what I mean? You have to be

very aware of what you are doing. If you weren't aware of what you

are doing... You know what amean? You would be break dancing... That

is the way you go when you get hit in the centre of the wicket, is it?

On the dance floor you hip-hop. You have to be very, very... Your focus

and your, you know what amean, you have to be worried what is

happening behind you as well. have all of that activity. You have

all that adrenaline? Yeah. Everything is happening in your

life? Yeah. You are on top of the world and then... I wouldn't go far

to say top of the world. I was only top of the world for about a month.

But there comes a time when it stops? Yeah. That's when you got

into trouble with yourself? wouldn't go so far to say auto got

into trouble with myself. I have been a loner. I met my wife early

on in my life. I met her at 17/18. I was locked into a prison, you

know what aI mean a military prison. I couldn't look left or right. I

had to do everything that I had to do. I was in training camp,

regimental, whatever. When I left all that, I didn't explode, I

enjoyed myself a little bit more than I would have done. I was

like... When you're married, if a nice lady comes along, you have to

look straight ahead much you can't look at her bump or anything like

that. A lot of people know what I mean! When all of that... When all

of that manic activity stops though? Yeah. What was the silence

like, what was the gap like? Many sportsmen will talk about this?

Yeah. What was it like. My trainer, God rest his soul, he said the

biggest fight will be when you retire from fighting. I couldn't

understand what he was saying. When you are active and doing this and

all over the place and busy, cameras and training camps, it's

very odd. You have to get on with it. I'm still here now.

certainly are. To prove. certainly are, sir. Was that the

beginning, do you feel, of your fight against depression? I don't

really know, you know. I think I had depression when I was eight or

nine. Really? I think so, if I check myself and the things I had

to do. I got sent to posh boarding school, when I was 12. I had

problems there when I came out I had problems. I had it for a lnge,

long time in my life, but it came out after the marriage. The doctor

diagnosed me as being bipolar, but I don't really think them places

what they put you in the hospitals do you any good. Sometimes they use

you as a guinea pig. We will talk about that in a second. It was

after your marriage broke down that you took a break down, didn't you?

Yeah. This was well publicised? Yeah. All over the tabloids. Right.

Can you describe the break down? you have a partner you break up

from it, you lose the kids, the house and you lose money. It can't

be good for anybody's soul or heart. Can you put words to what happened

to you... No, I can't, to be honest. It was a terrible feeling,

disgusting feeling. What is it, is it a loneliness, fatigue, what is

it? I can't really tell you what is it, you know what I mean? You lose

a loft money, fatigue, it's upset. You're frustrated. You know what I

mean, you think people are ganging up against you. Things roll into

one. You still have to get on with life and do what you have to do.

What the press did to you was plaster headlines all over the UK

saying had you gone bonkers that was the lack of understanding that

there was about mental ill health. That was Rebecca Wade from the Sun,

what do you expect? APPLAUSE

Did it hurt? It hurt a little bit, but I was going a little bit do-

lal-y. A little bit... I'm not too sure. You know what I mean? One of

those things that happens in life. When it's smooth, it's smooth. When

it's rough, it's rough. You have to get on with it. You talk about how

horrible it is to be Sectioned. How does that work? Do the police knock

your door? Yeah. They come to your door with two doctors who know

about mental health, they don't know what time it is or what time

of day it is. They have the power to come and take you to a mental

health place, recently there were two Asian guys, I didn't understand

a word they were saying. The police Sergeant was there laughing at them.

I said, the more you laugh at them, the more they will put me in. I

swear, as God sees me here, twice they came to my house and said, "We

are going to section..." I couldn't understand what they were saying.

Now, these people can't speak properly, they have the power to

say I have to go and be sectioned. You were ill? That is the first

time I admit when I was divorced and and my marriage, not recently.

I don't think I was that ill to get sectioned twice. What is it like

inside those places? It's a crazy place. You know what I mean, Kew

coo. You know what I mean. When people get up in the morning they

are all right because they are not on the medication. Once they take

the medication they it is a Kew coo place. It's serious, it's not a

jokey place. It's horrible. They put you in there for three months.

They put new there for a month, 2 days. They have the power to

experiment with you, like a guinea pig, give you all different tablets.

A lot of these mental health institutions very much care about

people? Care bfplt all they care about is getting the money and

getting the numbers up, to be honest. Not them all? Not all of

them. They are getting the numbers out. It's a merry-go-round. Big

money spinning thing, I think. did you get out? I got a tribunal.

I got out, the first one I got out after eight days. The second one I

was supposed to stay in there for six months, I got out after five

weeks. I'm persistent if I feel I'm right. If I'm wrong I hold my hands

up and take it on the chin. I know that the majority of this audience,

when I look at you, and when they look at you they will have a

certain man called "Harry" in their mind. You know what I mean, Harry!

He was a very good boy. Unfortunately, he died, I think,

last year or the year before. That a very good man. Very classy guy.

How close were you? We never kissed or anything like that.

APPLAUSE But we was... He had a lot of

respect for me. I think he got him self in trouble because he was

supposed to be professional, sometimes he let his guard down and

got carried away. Nothing dodgy. LAUGHTER

Between us. It was purely professional. He is a good man. I

admire him a lot. Where did the, "do you know what I mean, Harry"

come from? How did it catch on? of the fights I had the BBC was

getting humpy. One of the opponents I went in, he was a massive guy who

knocked me out in the first round, after about seven rounds I was

still Kew coo -- cuckoo when he knocked around me. He said, "That

was a good punch he caught you?" I was like "that is a good punch,

what do you mean?". It's good for business, I think. What is the

future for Frank Bruno? I don't know what the future is. I'm going

to try to be happy, duck and dive and keep myself out of trouble and

try to keep happy. I'm going to try to keep out of these places. I will

fight them if they come to my house. On a Sunday, in the afternoon,

after I did a charity thing and coming to my house telling me I

have to be sectioned. What is wrong is wrong, what is right is right.

That is how I see it. I will try and keep happy and duck and dive.

Are you happy? I am happy. Are you still training? I'm training every

day. You really should look after yourself a wee bit more, Frank?

LAUGHTER I do a little bit of training here

and there, do you know what I mean? To look after myself. If I said I

might need to lose a pound or two... Yeah. What recommendation would you

give me? Iep' not too sure. I would start with -- I'm not too sure. I

would start with walking. I don't do walking! You are kept busy.

couple hundred pressups? sittups, do a couple, start walking,

do you know what I mean? Zip up the fridge! Ladies and gentlemen, Frank

Bruno. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Here's a

quick reminder of how you can get in touch with the programme

Do you think a 10-year-old understands say murder or sexual

assault? Should 10 and 11-year-olds be made criminals if they break the

law? Is court the best way to deal with offenders this young? The just

jis minister David Ford wants to raise the age of criminal

responsibility from 10 to 12. What do you think at home? Here to

discuss it, Jonathan Bell and Conal The DUP's position is that ten

years of age is the right age, the law should stay where it is, right?

We are content with where the law is at the moment. Firstly we should

look to the victim first. We always talk about the needs of the

perpetrator. Let's think of the needs of the victims. They are the

innocent party in all of this. a child? Many of the victims are

children. Many of the children I worked with in social work have

been sexually assaulted, raped and severely injured by another child.

Let's look to the victim first before we start look together needs

of the perpetrator. There are a number of ways which we can deal

with. Does a 10-year-old and a 11- year-old and a 112-year-old know

the difference between right and wrong? I've a 11-year-old daughter

myself. She is a beautiful child. She is 11 going on 121, she will

chance her arm. She knows the difference between right and wrong.

Let's not talk about your daughter. Does any 10-year-old understand

criminality or the consequences of doing something - The vast majority

of them do. We have 69,235 children in Northern Ireland today who are

between 10 and 12 years of age. Do you know what percentage were

involved in crime last year 0.04%. Why? A minuscule amount of children

were involved in crime. Why? vast majority of children do know

the difference between right and wrong. What makes a 10-year-old a

serious law breaker? There can be 1,000 reasons why someone will get

involved in anti-social behaviour, someone will damage a car. I don't

understand why we're not willing to have a grownup conversation about

this issue. There are several things worth noting. We are out of

sync with the rest of Europe. The age of criminal responsibility is

lower than anywhere else in Europe. People like the Royal Society, the

top scientists in this land are telling us that, from a

neuroscience point of view, kids aged 10 don't know, more often than

not, what criminal act is. It's not the same to say "you're criminally

responsible" as to know the difference between right and wrong.

Finally, I think the reason we need to have a grownup debate, what we

need to do is have a conversation with what the representative from

banard owes was talking about is having the age lowered for nearly

all crimes but not for serious things like murder, rape or sexual

assault. The Cup DUP are refusing to have the debate. -- DUP are

refusing to have the debate. They knew what they were doing was wrong

they knew it was criminal. We have to to be serious about these

serious offences. How do you know they knew it was criminal? I have

I have been in court what these young children have stood in front

of judges and said that they knew what they were doing wrong and

pleaded guilty, that is how I know. You are saying that a 10-year-old

in an adult court, first of all that that is the place to put them

and they know what is going on? at all. The only way we can deal

with children who have committed wrong is to put them through an

adult court? Would you should know better. The reality is that there

are a number of different disposals. The bass majority of our young

people get dealt with by a warning from the police, yes they have

committed an offence, a police officer will come to the Home and

will explain to them what they have done wrong, give them a warning, it

does not give them a criminal record, so dark are a number of

different ways to deal with this. Let us go to the audience. I want

to ask you about young people breaking the law. Not all of them

are breaking the law. Do not think it would be better putting money

into research and seeing why they are breaking the law? There are a

lot of people out there who believe a leopard does not change its spots.

Do believe that they no go difference between right and wrong?

I think there needs to be more support in the background for a 10

year olds. I agree. Let me move to someone in the back. I am a

shopkeeper. My experience is that children are around that age are

exactly the same. I do not see any evidence that a 10-year-old is any

less or knows any less about what they are doing than a 12-year-old.

Would you make it to lower? Were due drawled aline? Look at what has

happened here within the last 48 hours. Let me stop you. There is a

lot of detail around that case that is separate. We are talking about a

10 year olds. What do you think? They are primary school children.

It is crazy. Northern Ireland is as backward as Wales and England. You

can pick Switzerland as an exception. You can pick one

country... 12 in Scotland and 12 that mainly in the south of Ireland,

their team in France, 14 in Germany, at 16 in Spain, all more civilised

than Northern Ireland, Wales and England in how they treat children.

One second. The this is the fallacy that it always deals in an adult

court, it does not. The vast majority of young people are dealt

with it with a warning. I have sat in youth conferences with the

victim and often the young person feels, when I burgled someone, I

did not realise at was taking some think of sentimental value. When

the victim explains that the impact, the young children do not go to

adult court or get a criminal record. They take responsibility

for what they do. If you sit down with them and talk to them you can

show them a better way. You do not have to put primary-school children

in the adult criminal system. does not go to an adult court!

think we need to remember James Bulger who was murdered by a two 10

euros. We have got to the solicitor of one of the killers, Lawrence Lee

criminal defence lawyer. How low. What is sure Duke? I represented

Jon Venables in the case. I cannot believe it is nearly 20 years ago.

I have been on many programmes, including yours, and said in my

opinion, even though I defended 10, the age of criminal responsibility

is correct. I want to say that I a key not advocate that every single

child of 10 whose deals Smarties from Tesco's should be prosecuted

and I think I am right in saying that the Republic of Ireland has a

two-tier system and I advocate that, work by indictable crimes like rape,

murder... Does a 10-year-old understand rape? You cannot take

them all for granted, every child is different. We are talking about

a very small minority of children. In my experience, their

understanding of right and wrong has developed over the last 20

years with the introduction of violent I t, computer videos,

computer violence, pornography and one of my other theories... One of

my guests here is shaking his head. I have read a lot of the stuff that

he has written, he talks openly about marauding crowds in the

States as if every 10-year-old is out of control, they are harassed

in people. That is what he said. He has talked about reducing the age

to eight. Had used said that? never said that. Are you making

this up? I was reading this in the Green Room! BZ he did not say it!

Be he was misquoted on the BBC website then! A what do you want to

say? I would like to see where I said that. Switzerland I saying

seven and some states in America are saying sex! There is no

evidence that children's brains, developing a more. There is none.

And there is serious research published to say that you cannot

treat a 10-year-old as been assumed as being able to have the cognitive

ability to know the difference. Very quickly. Those countries with

higher ages of criminal responsibility do not have higher

crime rates. Let us go into the audience. I think the parents

should take some responsibility and you have to live into... Coming

into the dark nights, children as young as 10 should not be out

playing in dark streets. Her child throwing a stone at a car stealing

sweets, that is where it starts, where does it stop? You have to nip

it in the bud and not let it continue. A guy at the front.

two years, my son's lives was made hell by children aged between 8 and

10. They beat him with sticks, they dropped a breeze block on his head,

I meant to bring a picture with need to show you, his face was

swollen and black and blue. This went on for two-and-a-half years.

The minute they turned 10, it stopped. He changed go and it did

not happen again. The minute at the police became involved it stopped.

Hold on. The problem is we have a soft justice system, you move on up

the ranks and everyone is complaining, so we want to move it

up to 12 and let them get away with it for two years. This needs change.

Would you want it brought down so AIDS? -- eight. We had to send my

son to a psychiatrist. He was diagnosed as clinically depressed

and he asked how he could kill himself. His life was hell and back

stop once the police became involved. There are a couple of

things here. It is a serious point. Just because the age of criminal

responsibility might be 12, it does not mean the police cannot get

involved. The police can always get involved is something wrong is

being done. What the age of criminal responsibility, it carries

a lot of weight. So would I use detention order or taking the child

into care. No one is arguing that there are not a small number of

kids who will lose their liberty at a young age. You need to have a

balanced justice system. There are real people who are hurting as

victims. Why are you not on the side of the victim? It worked in

Australia, the United States... us go to the phone lines. I have

nine boys. I want to say, and why are you even listening to those

people? I have had to listen to them half my life! That woman who

was on earlier who threw her son out at 15, I am sorry, I have no

sympathy for her Dawn hold on. was a very brave lady. Listen to me.

Do you know what, I am sorry, let us stop the call. There is a reason.

Do you know what, you do not have a clue about the details of the case,

you do not know what she went through and also, she lost her son

and that is not going to happen that you judge her on this live

television programme. That is not happening. Right at the back there,

who do we have? Which a hand up. Who is one thing to talk at the

very back? I feel that parents are responsible for their children.

They should be teaching them from an early age right from wrong. It

is too late when they are eight or 10 or even when they are a team it

to try and teach them what is right or wrong, they should be taught

right from early on from when they are very small. Just in front there.

I recently completed one of those news conference services with a

person who stole my car and I thought it was the best way. He

told me why he did it and he has to come up with his own punishment and

I have to agree with that and if not he goes back to court. He was

15. It is a different age groups. We're talking about whether you can

actually determined it a 10-year- old understands criminality.

Definitely. I think they do. The everyone is born with their love of

Christ in them so they all have a conscience. That gentlemen, where

are you from? SDLP. Where is his accent? I am a northerner by Troy

is. Keep your nose out of our business! At one level it is very

funny, and on another level it is not very funny at all. Let him

finish. Thousands of people in the City voted for me to represent them

and if you do not like my accent... I did not saying that the! I am

proud of the fact that all those people bolted from the. Thank you.

A I think he has got a nice accent, actually! Where are you from a?

Tyneside. I will get shouted at by that all men. If the children

between 10 and 12 and do things wrong of course we have to

intervene under will have to be a punishment, but the question is how

do you do it? Kanes had a cot in adult criminal justice early have a

huge reoffending rate. What does work is were you bring the young

person with the victim and the then agreed to the victim how they

restore, they do not go to court, get a criminal record and the

criminality in his net in the bud. I will give you 10 seconds. I do

agree with them. At a new road is a reasonable age to be put through

the criminal justice system. You can make the victim and it can be

rectified. Thank you very much. There are politicians a round of