Episode 11 The Nolan Show

Slaughter on the Shankill. It's the 20th anniversary of the Shankill

bombing, the IRA atrocity that killed men, women and children. It

was an appalling attack in an appalling week in Northern Ireland.

It's another day for remembering, for grief and anger. And it's a day

for asking, can we ever move on from the Troubles without leaving

victims behind? Also on the show:

Former Westlife star Shane Filan tells me how he faced financial

ruin and is trying to rebuild his life.

And the Stormont beauty contest row. Don't enter if you're too fat, too

small or too old. MLAs have quit as judges. Were they right to walk

away? 20 years ago today two IRA men

carried a bomb into a busy shop on the Shankill Road. The blast killed

10 people, including one of the bombers. On Sunday a plaque was

revealed in memory of the IRA man killed in the blast - Thomas Begley.

The plaque says he died on active service. Victims families have

rejected an apology from the surviving bomber. We will be

talking to the family's of the victims 20 years on. They were

lovely people. She was everything you would want in a wife. Atypical

13-year-old. She was my sticking plaster. Everywhere I went, she

went with me. She was a fun-loving character. She was always joking.

It was a beautiful day. I had to go to the bank. Sharon asked me to

drop her off at the shops. She went into the fish shop and I spoke to

her through the window. I said to her I would see her in five minutes.

She wasn't going into the fish shop, she was going into the fruit shop

next door. I said to my son in the back of the car, what I wonder what

is keeping your mother? My son said, here she comes now. And then the

bomb went off. We heard the explosion and I ran and when I got

outside there was Wrobel, dust, I couldn't see in front of me. We

could see the crowds and... The ambulances... It was just... I knew,

you know? There was nothing, just a collapsed shop. We were digging for

what seemed an eternity and every now and again there was a shout for

quiet. I kept saying, I can't find my daughter. Where was she? Was she

able to get away? We went to the Royal because being a children's

hospital, we thought she would be taken there. A couple of detective

said we should follow them and we followed them to the mortuary.

People huddling together, family by family. We were the last family to

be told and as families were told, you could just hear the screams.

About 10 o'clock that night we were really worried because the family

had been around the hospitals. Then a phone call came and it was the

police saying they had three bodies. We did the identification. We don't

really talk about it. Sometimes it this time of the year, but if you

keep talking about it, it will tie your insides in knots. They say

time is a good healer, but I don't think so. If there was an apology

from Sean Kelly, I would not accept it. Thomas Begley was not a hero.

He was a coward, and murderer, a child killer. No words can say

sorry. Commemorating him as a hero is a step too far. Had the Begley

family had a short service on Sunday, that would have been

different. They were not heroes, they were murderers.

There will be many people in the studio who will want to speak about

this tonight, and let us start of this evening with Gareth Hawkins.

Hello. Thank you for coming. I know this is one of the first times you

have ever spoken about this. Tell us what happened to you. I was 16

years old at the time and it was myself and my girlfriend at the

time. We were going to visit her family who lived in the Shankill.

That date we decided to go shopping and to the cinema. We were just

walking down the street, on the same side as the fish shop. We were

walking down there and there was myself, my girlfriend and Our

younger brothers. We passed the door of the fish shop, around the

middle of the window. We were a couple of feet away and the bomb

went off. One was the first thing you remember? I was unconscious and

the first thing I remember was being covered in rubble from the

neck down. I lost consciousness again and the next thing I remember

was seeing these women just looking at me and screaming. Some women

came with the White Tower walls and put them around my head. -- White

Tower walls. The ambulance people came. They kept saying, we cannot

wait, we cannot wait. Get him away. I was put into a black taxi and

taken to the hospital. You found yourself in intensive care? Yes.

Who were you with? When I woke up in intensive care, I couldn't use

my right arm, but that was it. In the bed beside me was Jim Harrison

who was also caught up in deep bomber. At the end of the ward was

Sean Kelly. -- caught up in the bomb. He was fighting for his life,

the man who left the bomb. He would say that he did care. He did not

care. You must have bought over the years about him being so close to

you in that hospital. There was a heavy police presence, according to

my family, all around him. And people were only allowed in one at

a time. There was police all about the place, but I personally did not

know he was in the same ward as me until I was out of intensive care

and put on another ward. I do not think too highly of him at all. We

always hear about moving on, looking to the future. You are

still living with the aftermath of this to this day. Yes. After the

bomb, I had post-traumatic stress disorder. Until this day I am still

on anti-depressants, just to pick me up and get me through. Where

were you yesterday? I was working yesterday. I work in a pub. You

were having a blast taken out of your head? I was. There is still a

little bit left in there. What type of implant does it have on you when

you hear that the men who did that I have described by some people as

soldiers of Ireland? I can only speak for myself, I cannot speak

for the family's of the other victims, but myself, I half

expected from those type of people. I expect them to glorify each other.

I don't think they have moved on. I don't think they will ever possibly

move on. This is just a small minority, but the plaque that they

have for Thomas Begley, the three people on that stage, I was not

surprised by that. I expect it from those people. We will hopefully get

views from all sides of the community. There were atrocities on

all sides and I acknowledge her. If you do want to contact us, the

details will appear on your screen. Is it possible to move on? It has

to be. Given what happened to me, you would have thought it would be

more difficult to move on, but faced with the choices I had back

then when Sharon was killed, to me there was no other choice. We have

to find a way of stepping up to the plate and moving on. 20 years on

the Shankill bomb, 15 years from the Good Friday Agreement, to be

honest with you, I don't think we are as far on as we should be. I

don't know whose fault it is. I think some of our politicians play

games with us. The Thomas Begley commemoration event was condemned

by some. You can see how things are being played out. I have tried my

hardest since Sharon was killed and after I had a couple of years

chasing a Gerry Adams around, I can to the conclusion that the Troubles

were not the fault of Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly. They played their

part and they have to take responsibility, but they was a

wider context. We grew up in a society where sectarian was rife.

The people who murdered my wife were only five minutes away, but we

didn't go to the same schools, go to the same shops, share anything.

They may as well have been 5,000 miles away. I am not trying to

excuse Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly because they were responsible for

the Shankill bomb, but you cannot blame the Troubles in Northern

Ireland on people like that. There was a wider context.

I ask everyone to put themselves in the place of the families for ten

seconds and ask themselves how they would feel about what happened to

those little children and the mothers and the fathers and say can

you feel it in your heart how they are feeling? Nothing is going to

bring them back. Victims on all sides. And there will be a lot of

people saying, why is this all about the Shankill bomb? And let us remind

ourselves, it is probably a good time to do so, what a terrible

period this actually was in Northern Ireland. The Shankill bombing was

followed by a series of loyalist attacks. An IRA bomb attack without

warning kills nine people and injures 57 more. The Shankill Road

was busy with lunchtime shoppers when the attack happened. I saw a

woman there, I saw a man and a pram wheels.

The people of Northern Ireland want peace, they want an end to this

murder and mayhem from wherever it comes.

The victims were preparing to start work when the shooting began. They

fired between 40 and 60 shots. One of the dead man was killed in the

first burst of gunfire. The scene inside the bar today where

the signs of last night 's attack are still clearly evident. Two armed

and masked men walked inside and opened fire indiscriminately. It was

pandemonium and the whole place was screaming. Everyone was screaming.

Could not believe it. We were Pain on all sides. You are a form of

victims commissioner from a republican background. And a victim

and how we look upon a victim, even the definition of a victim, it is

ripping this community apart. It is, it is a very difficult and

contentious issue. I am glad you showed the film that you just did

because one night has my mind that 20 years this week and I remember

the 24 people that died that week, in the middle we had the two young

brothers gunned down in their own home and numerous other debts would

Michael deaths. I am glad that the programme has heard from Gareth

Wilkinson. People continue to live every day with debilitating

injuries. We have to learn to embrace all of those people. We have

to look at ways that we can start to bring our community together.

Remembering and sharing what we have all experienced. But it is how

people remember and a word is used often in Northern Ireland, I have

heard it all week, I have heard it for many years, sensitivity. The

Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness tweeted tonight that the

people of the Shankill Road should be treated with dignity and

sensitivity. To put a plaque at on the very week that these people died

commemorating a bomber who killed the children and men and women. Is

that sensitive? It is a difficult issue. Sensitive, possibly not but

it is part of our process of remembering as a community. We have

great rituals around death and supporting families when they are

grieving. We go two weeks until roles. We remind people that we are

sorry for their problems. The unveiling of the pack this week, the

events that took place on the Shankill Road, those are about a

committee coming together to support those people that more within that

committee -- community. They are about people saying we recognise and

acknowledge your loss. I do want to ask you and this community tonight,

when Sean Kelly and Thomas Begley, when they were walking into that

sharp, and there is a little seven-year-old girl and there is a

going to get Europe anyway, that's going to get Europe anyway, that's

going to get blown up anyway, are they a victim? Are they a soldier?

No one is seeking to justify the murder of innocent children. We

should not go on my part. We are here today to try and see how we can

sensitively commemorate those who have lost their lives as a result of

the conflict. I think that is the issue for me. I did go there to say

that at the end of the day, I remember and I acknowledge the fact

that Thomas Begley was some mothers son. Of course that family needs pay

their respects. They lost their son. I understand that. But what happened

on Sunday for me was not just a simple act of remembrance. It was

wrong. It glorified the violence. It was to be nigh for people like me. I

am quite evenhanded. But what happened on Sunday, in my view, was

wrong. He was not a soldier of Ireland. He murdered women and

children and kids and then we turn around and we commemorate this. He

would say he was fighting a war and innocent people get caught up in a

war. And he would talk presumably about the British Army and the

amount of innocent people that the about the British Army and the

British Army have killed and collusion and state violence.

Whenever that happens, and I understand that, and I'm against

collusion, but the best of my knowledge we do not take those

people and isolate them and remember them and reflect upon them and

unveil plaques to them. We don't have to necessarily condone the

actions of those who died to show compassion for those who mourn them.

But it is what we do in Northern Ireland. It is back to this issue of

sensibilities and -- sensitivity. It is about how people are remembered.

John in Belfast has called us tonight. Go ahead, John. All I want

to say is that as far as I know, the IRA never had suicide bombers. I

don't think Thomas Begley went in there with the sole purpose of

killing innocent people. He went in there to kill people who were

planning to kill other people. But they just happen to pick a busy

Saturday afternoon and a shop full of customers. Right, what he did do

was according to reports, he left an 11 second fuse, he was at the back

of the shop. He left himself enough time to get out of there. What I am

saying now, don't be picking me up wrong. I am trying to understand

this thesis and I'm going to hear it again from you that they did not

intend to kill innocent people. 11 second fuse. To put a bomb in a shop

full of men and women and children, what do they expect to happen? Is

this a rewrite of history? I am not trying to rewrite history. It was a

dirty war and everyone played their part in that dirty war. I am not

going to suggest for one second that I am going back on history. That is

not going to happen. But he was at the back of the shop, he has lit the

fuse and left him an assigned to get out of there. His target was the

people upstairs. He got a lot more people than that. If you look at the

photographs, the whole front of a chop came out. -- shop. He

definitely wanted to chemist Matt -- commit mass murder. They knew what

they were doing. Tell me what happened to you, your family. I lost

my sister that day. Man was out shopping with her. -- my mother was

out shopping with her. She was in the shop and the bomb blew. Just

really bad for my mother. Just terrible. Just bringing it all back.

They knew what they were doing that day, no doubt about it. They knew

they were going out to commit mass murder. They did not intend to blow

themselves up. It did not go according to plan. It backfired a

bit on them, I would say. What is it like all these years later? Hard.

Just watching all that the families and my mother went through. Just

hard to describe. I cannot put words into it. But you, like the rest of

us, want a better Northern Ireland. Of course. And that means we have to

understand there is pain and suffering on all sides. And so how

do you reach out to the people who are saying they are equally in as

much pain as you? And they have got an alternative story and they want

is to end? But they want to be able to remember who they see as their

soldiers and their history. Do you fight it or do you try to

understand? You try to understand boys want to view. -- both points of

view. The likes of Thomas Begley 's family, I believe, that they should

remember their son, they are entitled to. But to glorify it, in

the way that it is, it is just hard to handle, to watch it. There have

been many correspondence and newspeople, I guess like me, trying

to Article eight of sides of the argument of when that plaque was

unveiled and the language that was used. Tell me what it was like when

you felt it was happening to you and tell them what it felt like. It felt

disgusting. It felt like they were walking over my sister 's grave.

Once again, I cannot describe how I felt at the time. Just really,

really hard to watch them stand there and do that on the television

in front of me. It was just hard to watch. I want to remind us all what

some of Sean Kelly actually said at the unveiling of this plaque. Just a

matter of days ago. I offer no excuse for the killing of any of

these innocent people. I am truly sorry for the loss of lives that

day. Now he says he is really sorry, this

is my final question to you, he says he's really sorry, and Martin

McGuinness has endorsed that tonight, the Deputy First Minister,

they are really sorry. To say sorry, that is better than not to say

sorry. Have you not got to take it at face value or try to? I will

never take that at face value. I will never accept his apology.

Never. Thank you for talking to us tonight.

What are your thoughts? This is a society with divided stories and a

divided sense of history. They're off ideologies -- there are

up ideologies involved. Someone said on your radio show that Thomas

Begley died for Ireland. A so drop -- a soldier of Ireland, they said.

That is how he would have seen himself and how he would have been

led to believe he was. These men did not wake up in the morning and

decide to go to the Shankill Road to commit what was a sectarian

atrocity. But as difficult as it may be for some people, had people

got to tolerate and understand those people who want to gather

together to commemorate who Dacey as the soldiers? Is that the way

forward in Northern Ireland? I do not believe it is the way forward

at all, but what I would understand the situation to have been, this

commemoration was not organised by the family. I don't think the

family were enthusiastic about it, but it was their son, so they went

along with it when it was happening. The organisation that these two

young men belonged to was based upon the notion that they were

fighting a war, sanctioned by a competent faction of the IRA. I

don't accept that ideology, but we have to understand that those were

the ideals. Let me bring Nigel Dodds in from our Westminster

studio. Some loyalist paramilitaries at that time were

very much increase in violence and their murder campaign against

Catholics at that time, and that is the context that is important to

remember here but we are talking about this. It is part of it. When

you look back at that period and many years before it and after Rick,

there were killings going on on all sides, including terrorists on the

loyalist side and the Republican side. There were 1,700 deaths due

to the IRA. We need to get this into context. Let us be very, very

clear about the crowd last night on the Shankill Road. Today at the

wonderful memorial service on the Shankill Road as well, people were

coming together as a community in a respectful, dignified way to give

support to the families and that is how it should be done. And people

who went to the commemoration of Thomas Begley would say they did

that, in a dignified way. I was about to come on to the stark

contrast. People did not go out to offend anyone. You contrast that

with the glorification because there was a plaque erected that pay

tribute to someone who was a terrorist and despite what Martin

others have said about sensitivity, others have said about sensitivity,

cheered on by the presence of Gerry Kelly, a leading Sinn Fein member.

It is bad. The wider and we also draw the parallel to Bryan Robson,

I'm sorry, Robinson, the UVF killer, who loyalists parade behind? All

violence is wrong, or murder is wrong. -- or a murder is wrong.

Everybody should be brought to account and there should be no

glorification or support or vindication of those who carried

out these atrocities. And should people be able to march on the

12th? I do not support glorification of terrorists. Is

there to know? Absolutely. We do not support murder or mayhem. There

should be no glorification of violence and terrorism. let me make

it clear, there are attempts by some to to glorify those who

committed crimes. That is why the definition of the victim needs to

be a change. Thank you. I'm just looking at some of the sweets

coming in. -- tweets. The lady there with the glasses. At the end

of the day, these killers me exactly what they were going to do.

They have prepared a bomb and walked into a shop with innocent

people out doing their normal daily shopping. To put a plaque up is a

disgrace and to say he was on active service is bad. They should

have put up a plaque for the victims and their families. Jude

Collins. Looking at the film, it would be very difficult not to feel

deep distress. I don't know how some people can bring themselves to

look at it. It is absolutely heartbreaking. If the question is

about Thomas Begley and this memorial plaque, that is what

opposing forces do. That is why we have set the task, that is why it

all groups throughout the world celebrate their dead. -- that is

why we have Cenotaphs. I wonder how much priority we should give it, as

in, should it be at the very top of our priorities in Northern Ireland?

Are we ever going to work out a way in which both communities can

recognise that the stories are never going to be agreeable, we

have to define a victim and we have to find a way to remember it each

other's history together. Can it ever be done together or will this

tension be passed on to the next generation? Very difficult. I

sincerely hope we can go in that direction because that is what it

comes down to, to see the things from the perspective of the people

who have inflicted hurt on you, whatever side that is on. Thank you.

I am really sorry that in this short time we have in television we

are going to end our discussion on that issue. It is a massive

discussion for us in Northern Ireland. We will continue it on the

radio and you can continue it now on Twitter.

Leicester's get a quick reminder of how you at home can interact with

us. -- let us. The details are coming up on the screen.

Still to come on tonight's programme - the Stormont beauty

contest. If you are too fat, too short or too old, don't apply. My

next guest rose to fame with the short or too old, don't apply. My

Irish boy band Westlife. They had album sales in excess of 40 million.

Waking up beside you. To watch the sunrise on your face. To know that

I can say I love you. In any given time or place. A but as the group

2012, Shane Filan was hiding a 2012, Shane Filan was hiding a

secret - he was heading for bankruptcy. Now he is trying to

rebuild his life and career. Let us welcome him - Shane Filan.

You are a popular man. You are jamming my Twitter feed. They

aren't talking about me, they are talking about you. Sorry about that.

No problem. It's great to have you. There is a perception of a pop star.

You see beat success on screen, but there was a lot going on behind the

scenes. I lost my money. How much did you have? It was all of my

savings. I put it into property. The Celtic Tiger was booming. I

didn't have millions, but people were saying, you are stupid, you

have got to get in. You are mad if you don't get in even further. I

just had my first baby. The band had done well and we have made a

few quid. Things could be over quickly and you think, I need to

invest my money. I was only 25, 26. I put it all into property and lost.

Can you remember thinking, this is really going wrong? The last few

years, leading up to it when nothing was happening, we bought

sites and were trying to get planning permission for things like

supermarkets. It was a formula that seemed to work for other people.

Did you borrow tens of millions? No, it was about 20 million. It was 18

to be precise. And then you see the market climate, you are in too deep.

What happens. You run out of money. If it was me, I would go into

denial. I was in denial for a while and I was angry, but you look at it

and think, I am in this boy band and we are doing it well, but the

other side of my life is in tatters. I was paying out ?80,000 a month

just in interest. It was crazy trying to keep it at bay.

Eventually, you run out of money and then you just can't fix it. It

had to be affecting your mood when you were performing and engaging

with other people. When I was on stage it was the one time I never

thought about it. When you are on stage it is very hard not to be

happy. You are singing to thousands of people and it is amazing, but

when you come off stage, you are worrying about it. You are getting

e-mails from the banks and you are thinking, this is getting out of

control. I tried my best and I tried to keep it at bay for three

or four years. We do you blame? I don't want to blame anybody. At the

time when I took the loans out, it was the right thing to do. It made

a lot of financial sense. It is hard to blame anybody. I don't

blame the banks or people. The whole world fell apart financially

and I was just one of those people and I was just one of those people

who got caught in it. I actually think you will be doing conferences

around the banking sector for the rest of your life. You could point

the finger at different things if you want, but I was just very

unlucky. You are putting an investment there and taking a risk.

I was just very unlucky. When things happen like that, you look

at the rest of your life and you think, what do I have? I have no

money, I was literally bankrupt, but I had a great wife, an amazing

marriage and three healthy children. I looked at that and I thought, I

would just start again. It is not the end of the world. If something

was wrong with them, my children were sick, it would be different.

You are building your life up again and you are fighting back. You have

to. You have got to look to the future. That is what I look like. -

- that is what I looked at. Is the future bright? I haven't a clue!

Well, the start of my solo career has been good. I performed in

Belfast and it sold out. I did not expect that. It is a nice thing to

be able to do. It is early days, but it is better than it was a year

ago. And you are going to sing for us later? I am. Go and get ready. I

am looking forward to this. Now, for his first live performance in

Northern Ireland, Ladies and Gentlemen, Shane Filan!

money, when the if the punch line is funny.

Worry if the sky is going to fall. Worry about winning, worry about

losing, worry about the rows we are choosing.

Worry is that someone is going to call.

You spend so much precious time trying to figure out.

What this crazy Maze of a beautiful world is all about.

So click on back, fill your cup, put on your favourite song, turn it up.

Find a little peace of mind in the sunshine.

Don't waste your days looking at the clock, say I love you to the ones

you've got. Because you only live once, once.

You only live once, once, once. Worry about truth, worry about

lying, worry about how much we're trying.

When it's all going to come to an end.

We spend so much precious time trying to figure out.

What this crazy Maze of a beautiful world is all about.

So click on back, fill your cup, put on your favourite song, turn it up.

Find a little peace of mind in the sunshine.

Waste your days, looking at the clock, say I love you till the ones

you've got. As you only live once, once, once.

You only live once, once, once. Click on back, fill your cup, but on

your favourite song, turn it up. Find a little peace of mind in the

sunshine. Waste your days looking at the

clock, say I love you to the ones you've got.

You only live once, once, once. Your live once, once, once.

Yeah, you only live once, once, once.

You only live once, once, once. Beautiful. Beautiful song. Thank

you. It was meant to be a night of glitz and glamour at Stormont. The

beautiful contest, a row broke out. Women could not enter if they were

too short, too old or my of an aside 12.

Spot the man reading the autocue. What do you think about this? I

think it is quite shocking, not that these women should adhere to these

particular notions of beauty, but actually that these beauty

competitions exist at all. I was listing to your radio show and some

really interesting comments came out there about, should we be shocked

that you have to be over five foot seven and you have to be a size 12?

Most beauty pageants are like that. What we should be surprised about is

that they exist at all. But women are still continuously being judged

on their beauty and body size. I don't think they are being

continually judged. There are many good looking beautiful women out

there who are size 18, 20. It is not about that. This is about the

realities of the fashion industry. This competition is about finding a

model. You can't be miss Ulster if you are over a size 12. And quite

rightly so. The fashion industry is completely full of body fascists.

Whoever goes on to win this competition will go on to represent

Northern Ireland and will get a modelling career. It is an ambition

that they have. If you're five foot six, you cannot represent Northern

Ireland? Not in a modelling industry. I understand what you are

saying but what we need to do is dismantle this system. There are

many plus size models out there. Let's talk about real life. That is

so condescending. I don't see what the problem is. It is condescending

to bigger women. Women have been protesting against this style of

beauty competition since feminism began.

And the fact that they still exist is shaming. This is the 21st

century. Women are equal members of society. Two people who were not

protesting were the politicians who have now amazingly a year after

actually attending his condition last year, they have pulled out the

media told them it was not easy. -- pc. There were a lot of skinny

people out there. Let's go to the audience. Do you think it was

appropriate to hold it in Stormont? There are a lot more pressing issues

going on at the moment. Basil McCrea was hosting it. He won't come on the

programme. I think we can show you a picture of

basil. He looks happy. But is it right?

Sorry, but BT cannot be defined by your size, your Haytor your age. --

beauty. What sort of message do you think that is sending across to

schoolgirls that you are not worthy of you don't fit into this category?

Exactly. Can I answer that? From where I am standing, you are

clearly a pretty young lady. That is so condescending. She has a valid

point. She doesn't need creeps like you saying, you are really pretty.

She is never going to be the next supermodel. Who cares, maybe she has

got a brain. These girls have a right to when to

a modelling, edition and they should not be deprived of that right.

Deprived of a right to enter a modelling competition?

When you are saying it is fashion rules, explained Sophie Dahl, one of

the biggest supermodels in the world consumer there are beautiful plus

size models but they are in the minority. We need to dismantle the

whole system. What are your thoughts around this?

Good evening. I think the first point I would like to take bids with

a me that for reason, she seems to think that if we celebrate beautiful

people we are not celebrating intelligence.

I wonder, if I had entered the comedy show, with IB stupid?

You say you are next model? A very long time ago. Did you get weighed?

I am talking 20 years ago. Sorry, in case that came across

wrong. I hope it did not. The point I was thrown to make is do they way

men? There are body constraints for men as there are for women. You have

to appear healthy. Hold on, hold on. Can we do something, come and sit on

this seat. He is the host for five minutes. This is a fat man saying

this, are you actually telling me that you cannot be healthy as a

woman if you are over a size 12? Are you telling me that? If you let me

finish, you may just learn something. You are supposed to be

controlling this. Let me give you this bit of information, I went on

the Northern Ireland health service website today to check what they

deem as being within healthy constraints. Were there any grey

areas Chris DiMarco there were no grey areas. And they say any thing.

The. . . We have a problem with obesity in Northern Ireland. An

unkind person would say that Paul Martin would not win any beauty

contests. I am a bad person. These women may well be intelligent

contestants. They may have degrees coming out of their elbows. They are

not being judged on their intelligence or their education or

the number of degrees. They are being judged on their looks. It

should never have been held in Stormont. These are public

representatives. This contest is not represent the majority of women in

Northern Ireland. They are women doing it for free choice. They

actually feel, get out of their space, let them create their own

business themselves, if that is what they see a modelling career, they

are intelligent and self -- intelligent enough to decide. But

there is such an incredible amount of pressure on young girls to look a

certain way and BA said in size. And to have certain thoughts. It is what

it is saying to those young girls. Is there anyone in the audience who

supports a woman or a man to be in these contests? I think that is the

so-called bigger people should be allowed to be in a beautiful pageant

because they are as beautiful as a thin person. Thank you. Madame, go

ahead. I think really, if it is that important to go ahead with it, it is

mostly Miss Ulster, it should represent everybody. The average

size of a women is 16. Why are these modelling contests really necessary?

We don't have judging day-to-day. Also, what kind of message do think

it sends young teenage girls that in very extreme cases could lead to

suicide? First of all, what I want to point out is that nobody sets out

a beauty contest with the idea of telling people that they are not

suitable. The people that enter beauty contests enter them the same

wears a scholarship and they are entering them to get a lead up the

ladder, for want of a better phrase. I also think that the point that you

made just now about it being damaging to young women, it is also

damaging to men because it sets up expectations for what men should be

achieving and the kinds of women they should be going out with. Let's

face it, it is not reality. I think it is just as damaging to men. The

whole attitude coming from this side of the table is very patronising to

women. There will be plenty of outcry on the radio tomorrow morning

when we continue to discuss both sides of the debate. Thank you,

ladies and gentlemen. Good night.