Episode 3 The Nolan Show


Episode 3

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said they can deliver a Shared Future for us all. Empty words, or a

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once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that we should all be backing?

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Forward-thinking, or a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church?

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Father Brian D'Arcy is here. And tonight we will be scoring a special

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surprise for one of our own. You are in on it, I am in on it, the

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audience at home are in on it, that all of this not gathered to pay

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tribute to one of Ballymena's finest know nothing about it. -- but all of

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Hello. The First and Deputy First Minister have finally unveiled new

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plans they say will help future generations to live and work

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together in Northern Ireland. Peter Robinson described them as the most

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ambitious set of proposals on the subject ever. Peter Robinson was

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brimming with optimism at this announcement. Our vision is of a

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united community, based on equality of opportunity, the desirability of

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good relations and reconciliation... But within days the tone had

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changed. Tonight, listening to the type of Jeremiah Test that infest

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the political process and whose first thought is to attack any

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genuine attempt to bring forward positive proposals. Danny Kennedy,

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you one that he's talking about. Why not embrace this rather than being a

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Jeremiah, as he described it? Jeremiah wanted people to do the

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right thing, and that is what the Ulster Unionist Party is committed

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to, and making sure that Northern Ireland, the people of Northern

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Ireland, that we do right for them... But stop whingeing, scoring

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political points. The reaction last week... I am not a so-what

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politician. I want the best for the people of Northern Ireland. This is

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a relatively young audience. They want to move forward in keeping with

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the rest of Northern Ireland. I want to play my part as an executive

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minister in my party and my party is entitled to play its part as part of

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that executive in bringing forward a better future. How frustrated,

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Jeffrey Donaldson, really is your party, or is this just playing to

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the gallery? The First Minister goes on about whingeing and all of this

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rhetoric... A lot of people are frustrated, and not least the 46,000

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young people in our community who are unemployed or not in education

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or training. Some of them, I guess, who are here this evening, many of

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whom are watching this programme. They are wondering what the future

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holds. Some of them are contemplating New Zealand,

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Australia, Canada, somewhere else where they might find the future

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they cannot at home. They are fed up of the bickering, the fighting and

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the squabbling and they want to seek action from politicians, from us,

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from every of us around this table, and what Peter Robinson has set out

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in this agenda is action. It moves us yonder on the finally, the

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debate, the discussion. -- moves us beyond. But people are fed up with

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in action. They want to see politicians delivering, especially

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for the people Danny talked about, those young people who want jobs.

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They are such fine words they could merely be in a glossy brochure but

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when Peter Robinson was talking about the whingers and the Jeremiah

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Test he is talking about people in your own party. -- Jeremiahs.

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all need to move this beyond the wrangling and the infighting...

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are part of the wrangling... When your party walked out of the

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discussions, Danny, it did not help. When you exclude yourself, what does

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that say to the young people you want to appeal to? The old party

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walked out as well. At least the STL P stayed in the room. People want

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action and this is about action. - the STL P. -- the SDLP. Our actions

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of walking out at that point have England indicated. The First

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Minister and Deputy First Minister made announcement that appeared to

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be positive. I welcome the announcements. I simply need to see

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more detail. You lot walked away, too. Saying you have a statement of

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proposals from... This is a massively important issue. You have

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set yourself in the radio show the cost of division in Northern Ireland

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is approximately �1 billion per year so when we are looking to attract

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investment, improve education, create jobs, that is money that

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could be used. In 2007 it was said that it cost us 1.5 B in pounds.

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Think about that. And you lot cannot sort it. That is why I am passionate

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about this issue and right to scrutinise how the proposals

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actually stack up to the challenge. Let's look at the hard issues,

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education, for example. Before we do so, I want to be fair to you all, so

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let's be fair to the First and Deputy First Minister, Peter

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Robinson and Martin McGuinness, because they stood in front of us

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all and said they reckon they can deliver. Sinn Fein, they could not

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make anybody available for this discussion on our Shared Future

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around the country, so think about that. The biggest nationalist party

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in the country and they could not find anybody to be part of a

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discussion on the Shared Future. Think about that. You let me say it.

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Hold on, I want to take stock of what is said so let's take a look at

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this. This is what Peter Robinson things at that and saying it is not

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good enough. I do not think that is a fair reflection of what the SDLP

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said and I have to pick up on Chris is as point. In the talks around the

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Shared Future you will note that the SDLP submitted a number of

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proposals. The SDLP supports positive action. Once... That is not

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what I have heard. Whether it is real or not, is that an

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opportunity? Should this country the grabbing it with both hands? I think

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we should grab anything with both hands that is going to improve

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immunity relations. My only son house left for Australia to go to

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work so I feel very personally the lack of opportunity for young

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people. I would like to see the collective executive looking at the

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marketplace. It is a good start but not enough. I was at a function

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yesterday and I heard there was a gap in skills in carpentry on

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fitting out of boats, for example. I would like to hear how those gaps

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are going to be filled. How does that help us in the Shared Future,

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fixing boats? It is a job.But that is not what we are talking about. Is

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this not interesting, but here we have an opportunity tonight to talk

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about a Shared Future and you are talking about boats. No, I'm talking

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about jobs. Jobs. Do not be facetious. Jobs are really important

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that this is an opportunity tonight... I am talking about 10,000

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work experience places and what of those young people to do at the

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outcome of that? Just worked together for a year and then go back

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into your own areas where you do not have an opportunity? This is about

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providing real jobs and taking people out of poverty and giving

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them hope for the future. Let's have a look at how you can get in touch

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with us this evening. The numbers are on your screen. They make me

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read this. While you are calling us, is that something that anyone in

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this audience can get excited about, those 10,000 placements. Clearly,

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Dolores does not think it is enough. I would just like to ask the panel,

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in the interests of a Shared Future, should the panel not be

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concentrating on real issues that unite us all, such as... I have seen

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this problem come together like never before on the subject of

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residential home closures. What the reality of that really meant to the

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older people in our community really brought the province together like

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never before. Do you not think that is a better way of bringing

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communities together? Thank you. Indifferent. Wait until we get a

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microphone to you. I am doing an employment scheme at the minute and

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I'm just wondering how you are going to support these 10,000 work

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placements? What support will be there at the start, the middle and

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the finish Ye obviously there will have to be a financial incentive for

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the people who take part. It is not just a young people's placement. We

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have had some of the biggest organisations in Northern Ireland

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coming forward and saying they want to help. Would they not be wanting

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to sing it from the rooftops, impressing a campaign to bring our

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young people together? Do these companies exist? Of course they do.

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How many basements from a top company? One of the largest

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companies in the whole of the UK, as soon as this announcement was made

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spoke personally to the First Minister and stated they were

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willing to participate in that, and I think they are looking at hundreds

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or thousands of basements with that company. They are the largest

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employer in Northern Ireland. you might ass well tell us. How much

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are they going to be paid? We are co-costing that at the moment. We

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are looking at what we need to add to that, to incentivise young people

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to take part in these placements, and I recognise what you say...

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does that help a shared future? you look at the trouble we had

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before Christmas for example, a lot of the young people on the streets

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involved in that trouble are young people who don't feel they have a

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hope, who feel they don't have a stake in the community. They had

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flags. I will tell you what, it was nothing to do with the young people,

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it was to do with the fact that every single person round the table

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were disagreeing and you diaagreed. That is what happened.

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Hold on. With respect. Don't blame it on young people being unemployed.

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I wasn't doing that. With respect, that so not my assessment. That is

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the assessment of the community leaders we spoke to in the local

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inner city community, they say part of the problem is social

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deprivation, high unemployment. Young people who don't feel they

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have a stake in their community. As for the flag, so... It is iron Ron

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nick, Geoffrey knows more about the edetail of the Shared Future plans

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than we do and as Danny Kennedy does? Take the time to go and find

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out. We took the time.I don't wait for people to tell me. I get in

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answer. He called people Jeremiahs. I don't wait for somebody to come

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with the information, the people that I represent expect me to go and

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get the information for them, to impart it to them, to help them, to

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give them a leg up, and that is what our young people are looking for.

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And Tay are fed up with then kind of thing. Here is a young person here.

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Speaking about the 10,000 place, who is going to get these? As of you

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probably know there is more young people than there is going to be

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placement, how will you pick them? Will you pick those who have less

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skill, have less of a support background? Because of that, or are

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you going and then completely ignore those who have qualifications, that

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need the support the get a job? Valid question. Does anybody know?

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In the previous executive I served as employment and learning ministers

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looking at and bringing forward schemes for young people,

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particularly those who are Neets and need assistance, so there are

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programme, that I was bringing forward, which have been continued

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to be started by my party colleague and so, some of the announcements

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made last week I think add to that, I welcome that, and I want to see

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those programmes continue. This is important that we address some of

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the answers also tonight, because maybe Geoffrey, when people get more

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answers they will buy into this more, so, Shannon, what is your pack

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ground? Have you spoken to people in the opposite community, if you like,

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much? Yes, I am from a Protestant background, I will just say that,

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and I have Catholic friend through a mutual love of music. There are ways

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we can communicate, I am a part of a company that gives young people an

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interest in politics. Does that push Shannon down the queue of getting a

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placement, because she has spoken to people? And met people in the other

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community? Or will I be ignored because I have spoken to them,

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because I have GCSEs and I can't get a job. Is she further down the

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queue? That is the kind of thing we want to encourage. The purpose is

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two fold. One, it is to give young people genuine experience, and when

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I talk to young people who have been through their education, or maybe

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haven't had the education they hoped for, one of the things they tell me

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is it it difficult to get a job when you don't have experience. That is

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the first thing. The second thing is we want to encourage people to work

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together. This is beyond, this is beyond getting a job. The purpose

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was this is going to help us with our shared future. This will help

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these people. Start to learn about another community. By working, by

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doing what what in work. They will be working in work. What are the

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placements going to be? If I can go back to what I said. It is

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important. The young people who I talk to in the areas where there is

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high social deprivation, they tell me that what they want is a job,

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what they want is employment, what they want are opportunities, and I

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think that part of the difficulty we have, in terms of the segregation of

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our community, the divisions that exist, is that people don't feel the

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peace process has been delivering for them in terms of employment

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prospect, in terms of giving them hope, so in order to build a bridge,

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the first thing you must do is build strong supports, on either sides. On

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unless we have got that, the bricks you build across the middle is going

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to be... You see the spirit there, and the passion, Eamonn, that

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Geoffrey was clearly talking about. Do you think it will work, do you

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think that will inspire Catholics and Protestants to work together?

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Well, if it does I will be happy, I will be positive about that, and it

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I can see Geoffrey's passion and hear it. But I mean do I think it's

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a contradiction running through, all this, I have no doubt there are

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members of the DUP and Sinn Fein who want to share plans for future and

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make things better and if they work out I will be the first to applaud

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them. The fact of the matter, in relation to the Shared Future, these

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are two parties that are opposed to one another in their aims, so they

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are forever building and burning bridges, simultaneously, last week,

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I think it was Friday, we had a headline in the Irish times which

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said, Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness presenting vision for the

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future and the same day, the news letter we had a headline about the

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DUP, organise organising to hang the flags at five new location,

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meanwhile, Gerry Adams is ram panelling round, talking about the

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need immediately for a border poll so we can mobilise two communities

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separately in terms of orange and green. These contradictions are

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there, and I think there are hints in what I have heard from your

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studio about how to overcome all that. It is particularly struck by

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the woman who said that the community is coming together, and

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would come together, in defence of the residential homes which are

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being closed under the health cut back, I mean, I know people in these

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homes, I know the family, some are talking about militant action. They

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would like to see... To be fair to the Health Minister, he has said...

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I am not blaming. I am not blaming the Health Minister. He has taken

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the brief away from the trust. Sorry, that is nibbling at the edges

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of it. I am aware he has done that. What we still have is the prospect

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of the closure under whatever auspices. What people in the studio

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want, what MLAs could do to bring people together, if they would say

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don't move out, keep your loved ones there, we appeal to the workers in

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those places through the unions not to leave the job, the entire

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community would rally to that. not what we are talking about

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tonight. It is. This is my point. This is what you are talking about.

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This is the only way, would you listen to me, this is what I am

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saying. I am frustrated. This is how we will get a shared future. When we

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come together, not because somebody has preached to us, to be nicer to

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one another, but when we have to fight together for something.

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Incidentally, when Geoffrey... APPLAUSE.

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Geoffrey is talking about young people, he gives the amazing news

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that young people say they want job, of course they do, they say that to

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everybody because it is what they want. But listen to this, if you

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believe that, stop the job cuts in the public service, stop destroying

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jobs. Do that people will rally to you. There is too much nonsense

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being talked here. Stephen, let Geoffrey reply and you can come in.

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What does he have to say about the money wasted as a result of the

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vision that could be going into the Health Service? I am in favour, yes.

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United the schools and take on the Catholic Church. Take it on. Take it

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on. 80% when you poll on this TV show say that people want their

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children educated together. The First Minister said it is wrong we

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segregate children on the basis of division at the earliest age and yet

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the proposals amount to ten shared education campuses and no mention of

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integrated education. Where is Noreen Campbell tonight? I would

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like to support what has been said, because there is a gap, an absence

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at the heart of this statement, which I think has left people

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feeling disappointed. If we want our young people to be able to live and

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work together in the future, why aren't they able to learn and play

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together in school, side by side, as happens in our integrated schools?

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Why is there no mention of integrated education at all in this,

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when the simple state... ? shared campuses? That is what is

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proposed They are not integrated. They are shared, it is a start

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are separate schools, single identity school, coming together, on

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one campus. Church based. Why have that if your vision is for a shared

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future, of people living and working together, why would those children

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not be sitting beside each other in the classroom, learning from each

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other, with each other and about each other?

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APPLAUSE. Well there are already some projects

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in terms of shared education in Derry, where children are learning

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together, for, where there is a poor science provision in one of the

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school, they are separate school, a lot will be incremental, there is

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parental choice and parents are choosing to send their children to

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faith schools. There is a difference between shared

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education and integrated education. Summer schools and camp, however

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worthy won't cut it. Neither is to an extent, shared sites.

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Fundamentally. We need to look again at integrated education and

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southernly my party colleague has don a lot of work on that. What sort

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of work? We are not opposed to integrated education. You support

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the shared. That is enough for you. Is that not too little? Kids, they

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can't be educated together, they can be in a shared space but keep them

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apart? I don't think it is suggesting keeping them apart in

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terms of shared education. Tay are separate building. Not at all, that

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is a misinterpretation of it. And... They have different teachers.

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they will be coming together. understand the point being made. You

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cannot force people together. I am sorry, if you build a consensus in

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Northern Ireland. The wrong way to build it is the alliance where where

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you force your views on everybody else. You haul down the union flag

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and believe that will... APPLAUSE.

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Chris. Hold on. Chris has to reply. The last statement is false. Where

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was the consensus They put for war ward a compromise provision. In

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relation to integrated education, if there is so much support for it, a

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modest proposal to set a target of 20% of children in integrated

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education by 2020 and no-one saw fit to support that. That is a disgrey.

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We need to understand what shared education is about. The way you were

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painting it is fundamentally different from the reality. You

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have, you have, if you can't take the big step at once, it is clear in

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Northern Ireland we can't do that, and never mind being, I take

:25:28.:25:32.

Eamonn's point about saving jobs and all of that, but the reality is the

:25:33.:25:37.

Treasury say we are taking �4 billion out of your budget. �4

:25:37.:25:41.

billion less, we have to look at how we can save money and at the aim

:25:41.:25:46.

seem deliver good services -- same time. I think we can do it better by

:25:46.:25:51.

having shared facility, if you have two schools in one town and they

:25:51.:25:57.

need to be replaced you build them on one campus, they share

:25:57.:26:01.

classrooms, in some cases it includes sharing teachers but it

:26:01.:26:05.

respects parental choice. Until we can get people to embrace the

:26:05.:26:10.

concept of integrated education and some do, then we have to take one

:26:10.:26:14.

step in the right direction. Look at the young hands up here. There is a

:26:14.:26:24.
:26:24.:26:28.

guy in the white shirt. Hello. from educational programmes in other

:26:28.:26:35.

countries, like Germany. They gain practical experience through

:26:35.:26:39.

apprenticeships, and they have managed to keep their youth

:26:39.:26:47.

unemployment down. Do these guys around this table, do the political

:26:47.:26:50.

parties in Northern Ireland ins by you that they can fix our problem?

:26:50.:26:58.

Not really. We need to look at countries like that. Go ahead. Reid

:26:58.:27:02.

I would like to say I think Martin McGuinness is a hypocrite when he's

:27:02.:27:09.

trying to promote the Shared Future. Because it is his party who has year

:27:09.:27:15.

in, year out, been chipping away at my culture. And making me present

:27:15.:27:22.

his party and what... He is not here to defend himself

:27:22.:27:28.

because no one from his party is available, but he would say he is

:27:29.:27:32.

trying to reach out to your community. But that is what his

:27:32.:27:39.

proposal is about. He has done absolutely nothing for the loyalist

:27:39.:27:45.

culture and year in, year out, they have been chipping away, Sinn Fein

:27:45.:27:50.

and Martin McGuinness have been chipping away at our culture.

:27:50.:27:56.

you. Obviously, he would deny that. As part of the Shared Future

:27:56.:28:06.

strategy, Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness have talked about

:28:06.:28:11.

removing peace walls by 2023. Residents Tina Patrick and Patsy

:28:11.:28:14.

Canavan told us what it was like living in the shadow of the peace

:28:14.:28:24.
:28:24.:28:38.

Bolts and stones still come over. Sectarian slogans still shouted

:28:38.:28:48.
:28:48.:28:50.

across the wall. Unfortunately, it is home. I was born on this street

:28:50.:29:00.
:29:00.:29:03.

in 1969. We have been here since 1970, so this is my home. When you

:29:03.:29:09.

think of the wall, you think of suspicion, you think of fear, you

:29:10.:29:17.

think of community tension, and that is on both sides of the war. I have

:29:17.:29:23.

never seen anyone across the peace line. The could meet your Protestant

:29:23.:29:28.

friends and realise they are your neighbours. The people who live

:29:28.:29:38.
:29:38.:29:39.

adjacent to the wall I would say it creates that sense of safety.

:29:39.:29:46.

we were children we used to go to the park and the plots. That was

:29:46.:29:55.

over 40 years ago. It has turned into the peace line now. At the

:29:55.:30:02.

bottom of the Avenue there is a pedestrian gate. It opens at 7am in

:30:02.:30:06.

the morning until nine o'clock at night. If there is any trouble, and

:30:06.:30:11.

there has been in the past, when that gate has had to close in an

:30:11.:30:15.

emergency situation, if someone is locked outside that gate, they have

:30:15.:30:23.

to do the deed tour of about a mile to get into their own home. --

:30:23.:30:33.
:30:33.:30:33.

detoured. I personally would like to see the walls down. I think once the

:30:33.:30:41.

peace line comes down it would all dramatically change. I know for a

:30:41.:30:45.

fact that if it came down there would be trouble. Both sides.

:30:45.:30:52.

beyond the wall is difficult because young people fear going through the

:30:52.:30:59.

gate. When you can't see what is beyond that gate, obviously, there

:30:59.:31:04.

is a fear. We have to try to break down those barriers within people's

:31:04.:31:14.
:31:14.:31:14.

minds. Before we break down walls. While, in an opinion poll for the

:31:14.:31:20.

Nolan Show, twice as many Protestants as Catholics said the

:31:20.:31:25.

barriers should never come down. Take a look at this. 21% of

:31:25.:31:28.

Protestants said the walls should never come down compared to 10% of

:31:28.:31:33.

Catholics. To be fair, there was overall support for the timescale

:31:33.:31:38.

that was set by the First and Deputy First Minister. 68% want the peace

:31:38.:31:46.

walls removed within ten years. 22% said take them down now. But,

:31:46.:31:49.

Jeffrey Donaldson, I know you are seeing that poll for the first time,

:31:49.:31:53.

that there is certainly something to read into that in terms of Catholics

:31:54.:31:58.

have been given and have much more confidence about peace walls coming

:31:58.:32:03.

down that the Protestant community, and who is the biggest party

:32:03.:32:08.

representing the Protestant community? You lot. Protestants

:32:08.:32:14.

living in those areas that have the peace walls feel that their rights

:32:14.:32:19.

have been removed from them, and this is why... In Belfast City

:32:19.:32:26.

Council, we tried to represent those views. Sadly, they were overridden

:32:26.:32:30.

by the Nationalists and the Alliance Party. It comes down to if we truly

:32:30.:32:33.

want to build the kind of society that Chris and his party talk about,

:32:33.:32:41.

where there is a Shared Future, and that is what I want, a society where

:32:41.:32:46.

people can live side-by-side and our young people have jobs, that is what

:32:46.:32:51.

we all want. You have to address the big issues like flags and parades.

:32:51.:32:58.

And deal with the past by bringing in an independent chairman. We will

:32:58.:33:01.

have to sit down and talk to all the parties and that is precisely what

:33:01.:33:06.

we are doing but the point is this, you have to build confidence.

:33:06.:33:10.

talked before. You had a committee before. You have to build the

:33:10.:33:16.

confidence. But you did have a committee before that did no good

:33:16.:33:26.

work and so you had to set up another committee. One side of the

:33:26.:33:30.

community feels that their culture has been destroyed, and that is the

:33:30.:33:36.

difficulty. Both sides of the community do not have the same level

:33:36.:33:41.

of confidence in terms of the peace walls coming down. Why? It tells me

:33:41.:33:45.

there is an indictment of leadership. A perfect example from

:33:45.:33:52.

Jeffrey Donaldson, this is the largest party. We took of a loyalist

:33:52.:34:02.
:34:02.:34:04.

party being destroyed in Protestant communities. That is absurd. Is he

:34:04.:34:13.

talking about when people have parades coming through the useful in

:34:13.:34:22.

Belfast, including a man who killed a Catholic man within 50 yards of

:34:22.:34:28.

the wall? How does that advanced loyalist Ultra at all? What we need

:34:28.:34:31.

to see from Jeffrey Donaldson, instead of once again indulging this

:34:31.:34:39.

nonsense, is leadership. It would be good if your party was here tonight

:34:39.:34:47.

to give some leadership as well. With the greatest of respect, at

:34:47.:34:51.

least I am here putting forward my point of view. Your party is nowhere

:34:51.:34:54.

to be seen. When I talk about culture and identity, I mean British

:34:54.:35:00.

identity, British way of life, and it is one that is being undermined,

:35:00.:35:04.

the kind of society we want is one built on respect and tolerance, but

:35:04.:35:09.

it has to work both ways. And does that mean the Finance

:35:09.:35:12.

Minister Simon Wilson putting up as many union flags as he can wherever

:35:13.:35:19.

he can? Is that mature politics at this time? The flags flown on the

:35:19.:35:25.

buildings where it is appropriate. What is wrong with flying a flag of

:35:25.:35:35.
:35:35.:35:36.

this country? Sorry, Stephen. It is still the Stephen Nolan show. It is

:35:36.:35:42.

not the Jeffrey Donaldson show yet. With the issue of separation that

:35:42.:35:48.

exists, and it is very sobering to hear those experiences, but it is

:35:48.:35:53.

painstakingly slow to make progress. I, in conjunction as a minister with

:35:53.:35:57.

David Ford, the Justice Minister, we have made progress in areas of

:35:57.:36:00.

Belfast but it is difficult and slow and you have to bring the people

:36:00.:36:04.

with you and that is key to beat. And Key to that is to make sure that

:36:04.:36:14.
:36:14.:36:15.

you do not make them feel more vulnerable. It is OK for all the

:36:15.:36:18.

politicians to say about a Shared Future and breaking the walls down.

:36:18.:36:23.

Nobody is talking about an after-care package for the residents

:36:23.:36:26.

who live on the interfaces. The police have come down and said their

:36:26.:36:31.

resources are getting cut so they cannot promise a lot. So where is

:36:31.:36:38.

the after-care package? I live on one of the most notorious interfaces

:36:38.:36:43.

in the country. So when you hear the first in Deputy First Minister and

:36:43.:36:46.

they have said there will be in conduction with the community, but

:36:46.:36:49.

when you get the prospect of the peace walls coming down, doesn't

:36:49.:36:55.

inspire you? Remap it is the unknown. The politicians do not come

:36:55.:37:00.

near us as residents around the interfaces. It is OK to sit in your

:37:00.:37:05.

big houses but it is the people on the streets, the only way you're

:37:05.:37:08.

going to get a shared future is by having residents speaking to

:37:08.:37:14.

residents. All of these parties to come in here

:37:14.:37:19.

and speak. Ladies and gentlemen, give them a brand of applause. Here

:37:19.:37:25.

is what is still to come on the programme tonight. A self publicist

:37:25.:37:29.

or saviour of the Catholic Church? Father Brian D'Arcy will be in the

:37:29.:37:33.

studio shortly. That's get a quick reminder of how you can get in touch

:37:33.:37:43.
:37:43.:38:05.

with us. -- lets get a quick get in touch. Tonight, on BBC

:38:05.:38:08.

Northern Ireland -- one of BBC Northern Ireland 's broadcasting

:38:08.:38:13.

legends. Is not me. Jackie Fullerton is celebrating his 70th birthday and

:38:14.:38:20.

40 years in broadcasting. Here he is in action.

:38:20.:38:25.

Jackie is with the man producing the magic at the moment. Are we on the

:38:25.:38:35.
:38:35.:38:48.

# Don't stop me now. Oh, for goodness sake.

:38:48.:38:58.
:38:58.:39:01.

# I'm a racing car passing by... Thank you very much.

:39:01.:39:06.

# That is why they call me Mr Fahrenheit... I am not quite sure

:39:06.:39:12.

what is happening there. Frank Lampard, thank you very much indeed.

:39:12.:39:17.

John Terry. John? It is a football. The flag stays

:39:17.:39:27.
:39:27.:39:31.

down. What a moment for Northern Ireland! -- it is a good ball.

:39:31.:39:37.

And some of the fans are offering me their handkerchiefs. Being the

:39:37.:39:40.

Ballymena boy. They think I am in tears.

:39:40.:39:50.
:39:50.:40:10.

Maybe I am. long career, there has been a Dean

:40:10.:40:14.

held in his honour in an demeanour. The tickets were too costly for me

:40:14.:40:21.

so I could not go. -- in Ballymena. It has not stopped me gatecrashing,

:40:21.:40:27.

with the help of a special friend. What is happening Eamonn? He is just

:40:27.:40:32.

getting to the punchline. Let him finish this story here. What you

:40:32.:40:37.

don't know, Jackie, is we are now going out live on BBC One on the

:40:37.:40:45.

Nolan Show, everybody. APPLAUSE

:40:45.:40:55.

Yes, all this attention. The biggest show in the country.

:40:55.:41:00.

That is the one. Stephen, you have a message across that. You have a bit

:41:00.:41:05.

of tape and we are going to let Jackie here, amongst the tributes,

:41:05.:41:11.

people paying tributes, but Jerry Armstrong, another one sitting here

:41:11.:41:18.

at the moment and he and Jackie reminiscent of the moment but here

:41:18.:41:23.

is a special birthday message for you from Sir Alex Ferguson. Jackie

:41:23.:41:30.

Fullerton, 70 years of age. My card! Where have the years gone? I

:41:30.:41:35.

always enjoy your interviews. They were good questions. He always got

:41:35.:41:39.

to the point and things but I always enjoy the interviews. Anyone who

:41:39.:41:47.

gets to 70, a year beyond me, is doing well.

:41:47.:41:54.

APPLAUSE. Sir Alex Ferguson Very good. You

:41:54.:41:58.

see, people will wonder what he is talking about. He said anybody who

:41:58.:42:04.

gets to 70 will be doing well. have trouble understanding him. You

:42:04.:42:08.

are trouble understanding him, but I don't, because I am from Ballymena,

:42:08.:42:12.

the girl is saying give me the microphone, they can't hear me.

:42:13.:42:16.

Thank you, the opportunities to appear on the biggest show in the

:42:16.:42:20.

country is quite something, and all your viewers and all the people in

:42:20.:42:25.

the studio, they should be down here, in Ballymena. They really

:42:25.:42:32.

should. APPLAUSE.

:42:32.:42:37.

We have here in the hotel, how many people are here tonight? Almost 4

:42:37.:42:42.

hundred on a Wednesday night. I don't do humility as Stephen know,

:42:42.:42:48.

but I am humbled by the attendance, in austere times. When you think of

:42:49.:42:53.

40 years, in the business, where has the time gone? How quickly has it

:42:53.:42:58.

gone? I think it goes quickly, Eamonn, because you are looking

:42:58.:43:03.

forward from one event to the next, I have a Cup Final to do or a rugby

:43:03.:43:08.

game to do in two weeks time. All of a Sunday your life is going like

:43:08.:43:14.

that there, and the thing is, you enjoy it, but when you get to relax

:43:14.:43:18.

and you are totally relaxed about it and you have got rid of the nerve,

:43:18.:43:23.

you find you are nearly 7 ah 0 and you are knackered!

:43:23.:43:31.

-- 70. I have had a great, what is it they say, a great journey, I have

:43:31.:43:36.

met so many people, like Graham Souness is here, Martin O'Neill, Pat

:43:36.:43:41.

Jennings, Gerry Armstrong, all these people, we have boxing champions,

:43:41.:43:45.

there are so many people, and, it is lovely those people have taken the

:43:45.:43:50.

time, and I would say, people here tonight, are my friends. And that is

:43:50.:43:56.

the best thing I have got through my career. What I can tell you Jackie,

:43:56.:44:03.

also, it is very very clear, Jackie, if you can hear me tonight, it is

:44:03.:44:06.

very very clear, that the audience here in this studio, they are your

:44:06.:44:10.

friend, the reason you have been round a long time, is the audience

:44:10.:44:13.

in Northern Ireland are your friends, and I don't think it would

:44:13.:44:20.

be the same this show tonight if we didn't get a few kind of bum flat

:44:20.:44:25.

notes from the man, who can sing as well as Jackie Fullerton. Look at

:44:25.:44:29.

those eyebrows going now. Look at that. When we suggest this man could

:44:29.:44:34.

maybe sing on the biggest show in the country.

:44:34.:44:40.

Do you want me to sing now? It is up to you Jackie, does anything come to

:44:40.:44:45.

mind? This is a song, honestly, a great memory for me is I went to

:44:45.:44:50.

visit a little Mansell brating his one hundredth birthday in a

:44:50.:44:53.

residential home. When I got there, they are sitting round, they have

:44:53.:44:57.

cake, a little man of one hundred, and they, a few of the old dear,

:44:58.:45:02.

they said Jackie, sing, sing. And the lit little guy with the

:45:03.:45:07.

keyboard. My producer, he is here tonight, he said sing for them. So I

:45:07.:45:13.

said OK, so I thought I will sing My Way. I am into it. This is what

:45:13.:45:18.

Eamonn says about: If you don't hurry up and sing you will be on in

:45:18.:45:28.
:45:28.:45:28.

the morning. I am getting there! The guy says, OK. I went "And now... #

:45:28.:45:36.

And I remember the next line is "The end is near "and the next was "And

:45:36.:45:41.

so I face the final curtain." I had to change the words quickly. Give

:45:41.:45:44.

Jackie Fullerton a round of applause. Thank you.

:45:44.:45:50.

APPLAUSE P Thank you my friend.

:45:50.:45:56.

I hope he has a fantastic night up there and thanks to Eamonn for doing

:45:56.:46:02.

that. My next guest is one of the faces of the Catholic church in

:46:02.:46:06.

Northern Ireland but his questioning on clerical celibacy and

:46:06.:46:10.

homosexuality has led to him being reprimanded by the Vatican. Ladies

:46:10.:46:14.

and gentlemen, please welcome Father Brian D'Arcy.

:46:14.:46:22.

APPLAUSE. Good to see you. You see, you and I

:46:22.:46:28.

have, we walked past each other a lot in the office and we exchange

:46:28.:46:33.

pleasantries and I say hello, but I don't actually know that much about

:46:33.:46:39.

you. Except what I have read and it intrigued me, why does such a genial

:46:39.:46:44.

character like you, want to get into not afraid to get into so much

:46:44.:46:49.

trouble? You take them on. Well, I am a genial character, in a quiet

:46:49.:46:53.

sort of way. I don't like rows, the last thing I want do is row. I would

:46:53.:46:57.

rather sit and listen to Jackie, he is a lovely friend and has great

:46:57.:47:07.

stories. We cut him off before the singing really started? Wise!

:47:07.:47:10.

Sometimes though, but the point of it is, if somebody take yours

:47:10.:47:14.

character or somebody says something to you, I was brought up to believe

:47:14.:47:18.

you should say your peace piece and say it gently, not in a fighting

:47:18.:47:22.

way, that is all I do. I have been a journalist for so long. Not in a

:47:22.:47:27.

fighting way? I don't fight.Not Catholic church, homosexuality.

:47:28.:47:32.

Celibacy, do you want me to go on. You are taking them on. Some are

:47:32.:47:36.

proud you are taking them on I think I have so. It is not so much taking

:47:36.:47:40.

them on, I am putting the point of view of the people I have dealt with

:47:40.:47:46.

for 44 yearses a a priest. I, all I am saying guy, there you have your

:47:46.:47:50.

views and things and I respect your views, and I have never questioned

:47:50.:47:55.

what you said, a core teaching of the Catholic church, a dogma, I have

:47:55.:48:02.

a question, thes way people, the way we deal with people, like

:48:02.:48:05.

homosexuals, like priests who should be married in my view, like women

:48:05.:48:09.

who are so badly treated by so many church, including the Catholic

:48:09.:48:14.

church, that is my job. That is my job to speak about that. Why would

:48:14.:48:17.

you want to be part of that? It is not getting it wrong, they are not

:48:17.:48:21.

listening to people doing it. The people have, you hear, you had it

:48:21.:48:26.

tonight here, the people are the voices, there is a man said, we

:48:26.:48:30.

don't listen to politician, we want to talk ourselves, and that is the

:48:30.:48:35.

real power of the place. The people haven't worked have it worked out

:48:35.:48:38.

for themselves, they don't need people from the top telling them

:48:39.:48:41.

what to do. The people are struggling to be as good as they

:48:41.:48:46.

can. Some of this conviction that you have, it is not just about what

:48:46.:48:50.

you have heard from people, it is about how it has affected your life

:48:50.:48:55.

personally, because you talked about falling in love. Yes.And then how

:48:55.:49:00.

the Catholic church was in conflict. In conflict with what you might have

:49:00.:49:06.

wanted to do. Having fallen in love. It is a human being, it is a great

:49:06.:49:10.

gift to fall in love. That is the first thing. It's a great gift to

:49:10.:49:13.

fall in love. It makes us strong. I have said as far as I am concerned I

:49:13.:49:19.

would have been a better priest had I been allowed to marry I didn't

:49:19.:49:21.

marry, because I had made a commitment to the Catholic church.

:49:21.:49:27.

How deeply in love were you? Deeply enough in love I could have married.

:49:27.:49:31.

But, but it is not a thing you make up your own mind about. That came

:49:31.:49:35.

out in the documentary in the BBC. It is something you have to talk to

:49:35.:49:40.

the person that you were with, and you have to talk about that. I have

:49:40.:49:44.

decided no, I want to be a priest, and I cannot be a priest and be

:49:44.:49:49.

married, so I had to make up my mind I couldn't be. But I am convinced,

:49:49.:49:56.

Stephen, sorry for interrupt, I am convinced that it is not realistic,

:49:56.:50:01.

to put a law that says a man can't marry if he wants to be a priest. If

:50:01.:50:05.

somebody wants to be a priest and celibate, fantastic, that is great.

:50:05.:50:14.

But if somebody wants to marry, and be a Catholic priest, that is also

:50:14.:50:19.

fantastic. The Catholic church stopped you... No I stopped myself.

:50:20.:50:24.

I stopped myself. Catholic church rule rules meant that you,

:50:25.:50:31.

throughout your life, are not able to love another person. Yes. Not

:50:31.:50:35.

even to commit myself in love to another person. I do love people.

:50:35.:50:39.

But that one special person for your. I cannot fall in love.We

:50:39.:50:44.

talked about this on the Radio 1 day, and it was compelling at the

:50:44.:50:48.

time. That can be a very lonely place. It's a very lonely life,

:50:48.:50:54.

and... How long -- lonely for you? Extraordinarily lonely. The thing

:50:55.:50:58.

that made my life worst of all and it compounded this issue of falling

:50:58.:51:04.

in love, was the fact I was abused as a child, and when you are abused

:51:04.:51:09.

as a child and teenager again, by people who are in religion, that

:51:09.:51:14.

leaves you with no confidence to do anything. When somebody falls in

:51:14.:51:17.

love with you and you fall in love, that builds your canned. You would

:51:17.:51:21.

like to be able to do it. You have hang ups about things for the rest

:51:21.:51:26.

of your life when you have been abused. Like what?Your about to do

:51:26.:51:30.

things, about sexuality, your about to express sexuality. Abusing the

:51:30.:51:34.

child is one of temperature cruellest desperate awful things you

:51:34.:51:40.

can do. It destroyed the confidence, it destroys ability. For example,

:51:40.:51:44.

when the Vatican made the censure on me, the biggest thing it did to me

:51:44.:51:47.

it ruined my confidence all over again. I became abused all over

:51:47.:51:53.

again. And for a year, or 18 month, I was going round with a hump on my

:51:53.:52:00.

back, and awful. I was devastated by it. They didn't need to do it to me.

:52:00.:52:07.

I am not say saying somebody said how can we pinpoint Darcy. It

:52:07.:52:12.

doesn't matter a fig to anybody in the Vatican. What does that say?

:52:12.:52:18.

They haven't really heard of me. What does that say about them? You

:52:18.:52:22.

are describing tonight you felt abused all over again. The reason I

:52:22.:52:27.

am saying that, steefb, is, to point out the awfulness of abuse, you

:52:27.:52:32.

never get over it. -- Stephen. You try to overcome and you manage it,

:52:32.:52:36.

but when something hits you at the core of your being, it just

:52:36.:52:40.

destroyed you all over again. you not tempted to walk away from it

:52:40.:52:45.

all? I have been tempted to walk away many time, but a vocation is

:52:45.:52:50.

not... How close did you get?I was very close on at least three

:52:50.:52:54.

different occasion, one of which was last year. You know, there was more

:52:54.:52:59.

than me who got the rap from the Vatican and the yellow card.

:52:59.:53:03.

close? The point about it was, at that stage you say to yourself,

:53:03.:53:08.

well, I have given almost 50 years of my life to the organisation, and

:53:08.:53:12.

it was a great gift from God I was able do that, but they don't seem to

:53:12.:53:16.

want me any more, that is what I was feeling at that stage, so I did

:53:16.:53:21.

think about it and I spoke about it, that I do need to leave, because

:53:21.:53:24.

nobody wants me in the place. But everybody, the people round the

:53:24.:53:32.

place, when I, the documentary that Natalie did on me. On BBC One

:53:32.:53:38.

Terrific documentary that was done and it was wonderful, but I had to

:53:38.:53:44.

answer 4,500 letters, as a result of that. 99. 9% of them please don't

:53:44.:53:47.

leave because you are the only voice we have left.

:53:47.:53:52.

In the church. That is why, it is not, when you have a vocation, it is

:53:52.:53:55.

not just satisfying yourself. It is you have to do something with your

:53:55.:54:03.

people and for your people. Do you, Father Brian D'Arcy think the

:54:03.:54:06.

Catholic church can sunshine -- survive long-term without allowing

:54:07.:54:12.

priests to marry? It is difficult to say that in history. It probably

:54:12.:54:19.

will survive in some shape fashion or form, but any church, Catholic

:54:19.:54:22.

church, other church, any churches you like to take any Christian

:54:22.:54:28.

church you like to take. It is not surviving, what the church's job is

:54:28.:54:33.

to make the compassion, the love, the hope, the joy, the Mersey ofs

:54:33.:54:37.

Christ living in people's lives. Specially poor people, marginalised

:54:37.:54:41.

people. That is not about a structure or an institution, it is

:54:41.:54:48.

about how it relates to its people. A mass or service in the Sunday,

:54:48.:54:54.

helping people, or is it destroying people? It will not, live in

:54:54.:55:00.

society, and cannot live in society, Stephen, until it comes to the

:55:00.:55:05.

saying why we are here. Is it to sever our people or institution.

:55:05.:55:09.

Christ said sever your people. Love the Lord your God with all your

:55:09.:55:13.

heart. That is what I am supposed to do and that is what the church is

:55:13.:55:16.

supposed to do. APPLAUSE.

:55:16.:55:20.

And do you think that for example Pope Francis, do you think he will

:55:21.:55:26.

move the church forward? I do.You are a big fan? That is why I am

:55:26.:55:30.

happy. People are saying you are happier 19 you used to be. One of

:55:30.:55:39.

the reasons is I have a new knee and I am not in as much pain as I used

:55:40.:55:44.

to be. Pope Fran circumstances you can't expect him to change the whole

:55:44.:55:49.

thing, but he seems to live in the same world as I do, he seems to be a

:55:49.:55:55.

pastor and not an academic, he seems to say get over the robes and frilly

:55:55.:55:58.

laces and sever the people. He is still an old man. It's a big role

:55:58.:56:08.
:56:08.:56:09.

for an elderly man. No yes about that. I agree with you, but John

:56:09.:56:13.

XXIII changed the world in Fife years. If Francis changes the

:56:13.:56:17.

structure of the institutions, that will change the church. Is that an

:56:17.:56:22.

opportunity for you no come off the naughty step. Do you think you are

:56:22.:56:29.

forgiven? What is the naughty step Do you think you are forgiven?

:56:29.:56:34.

as long as they leave me alone I don't care if they forgive me or

:56:34.:56:39.

not! APPLAUSE.

:56:39.:56:43.

How do you know you are not forgiven? I haven't got the letter.

:56:43.:56:49.

I got the yellow card and it hasn't been resended. If I get another one

:56:49.:56:58.

I am gone. Honestly?Yes. Is it a letter or what? It is a phone call?

:56:58.:57:03.

I didn't get anything, in the way, but my superior in Rome got a letter

:57:03.:57:07.

to say would you ever get on to the superior in Ireland, to get on to

:57:07.:57:17.

Darcy and tell him to shut up. Darcy shut up? Well, well, my

:57:17.:57:21.

brother who died after that, and I spoke to him about this beforehand,

:57:21.:57:24.

and because my family are very important to me, you know, and the

:57:24.:57:32.

people are very important to me, and I shared it with people, and they, I

:57:32.:57:36.

shared with my family. I didn't want to be a disgrace to them. So I told

:57:36.:57:40.

them this has happened, my brother said what does it mean? And I said,

:57:40.:57:45.

they wanted me to shut up and he said do they want you to start

:57:46.:57:50.

telling lie?s he said all you have done is tell the trust. Your mother

:57:50.:57:55.

and father wouldn't like it if you started telling lies, no, now. That

:57:55.:58:02.

is the bottom line and I am going to tell the truth.

:58:02.:58:07.

APPLAUSE. I have been wanting you into this

:58:07.:58:13.

programme for quite a long time now. Where did you tackle me? At an

:58:13.:58:18.

airport. I did.I was coming home and Stephen comes over, he could

:58:18.:58:21.

have walked up to me any friend in the office in the BBC, but he walked

:58:21.:58:27.

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