Episode 3 The Nolan Show

said they can deliver a Shared Future for us all. Empty words, or a

once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that we should all be backing?

Forward-thinking, or a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church?

Father Brian D'Arcy is here. And tonight we will be scoring a special

surprise for one of our own. You are in on it, I am in on it, the

audience at home are in on it, that all of this not gathered to pay

tribute to one of Ballymena's finest know nothing about it. -- but all of

Hello. The First and Deputy First Minister have finally unveiled new

plans they say will help future generations to live and work

together in Northern Ireland. Peter Robinson described them as the most

ambitious set of proposals on the subject ever. Peter Robinson was

brimming with optimism at this announcement. Our vision is of a

united community, based on equality of opportunity, the desirability of

good relations and reconciliation... But within days the tone had

changed. Tonight, listening to the type of Jeremiah Test that infest

the political process and whose first thought is to attack any

genuine attempt to bring forward positive proposals. Danny Kennedy,

you one that he's talking about. Why not embrace this rather than being a

Jeremiah, as he described it? Jeremiah wanted people to do the

right thing, and that is what the Ulster Unionist Party is committed

to, and making sure that Northern Ireland, the people of Northern

Ireland, that we do right for them... But stop whingeing, scoring

political points. The reaction last week... I am not a so-what

politician. I want the best for the people of Northern Ireland. This is

a relatively young audience. They want to move forward in keeping with

the rest of Northern Ireland. I want to play my part as an executive

minister in my party and my party is entitled to play its part as part of

that executive in bringing forward a better future. How frustrated,

Jeffrey Donaldson, really is your party, or is this just playing to

the gallery? The First Minister goes on about whingeing and all of this

rhetoric... A lot of people are frustrated, and not least the 46,000

young people in our community who are unemployed or not in education

or training. Some of them, I guess, who are here this evening, many of

whom are watching this programme. They are wondering what the future

holds. Some of them are contemplating New Zealand,

Australia, Canada, somewhere else where they might find the future

they cannot at home. They are fed up of the bickering, the fighting and

the squabbling and they want to seek action from politicians, from us,

from every of us around this table, and what Peter Robinson has set out

in this agenda is action. It moves us yonder on the finally, the

debate, the discussion. -- moves us beyond. But people are fed up with

in action. They want to see politicians delivering, especially

for the people Danny talked about, those young people who want jobs.

They are such fine words they could merely be in a glossy brochure but

when Peter Robinson was talking about the whingers and the Jeremiah

Test he is talking about people in your own party. -- Jeremiahs.

all need to move this beyond the wrangling and the infighting...

are part of the wrangling... When your party walked out of the

discussions, Danny, it did not help. When you exclude yourself, what does

that say to the young people you want to appeal to? The old party

walked out as well. At least the STL P stayed in the room. People want

action and this is about action. - the STL P. -- the SDLP. Our actions

of walking out at that point have England indicated. The First

Minister and Deputy First Minister made announcement that appeared to

be positive. I welcome the announcements. I simply need to see

more detail. You lot walked away, too. Saying you have a statement of

proposals from... This is a massively important issue. You have

set yourself in the radio show the cost of division in Northern Ireland

is approximately �1 billion per year so when we are looking to attract

investment, improve education, create jobs, that is money that

could be used. In 2007 it was said that it cost us 1.5 B in pounds.

Think about that. And you lot cannot sort it. That is why I am passionate

about this issue and right to scrutinise how the proposals

actually stack up to the challenge. Let's look at the hard issues,

education, for example. Before we do so, I want to be fair to you all, so

let's be fair to the First and Deputy First Minister, Peter

Robinson and Martin McGuinness, because they stood in front of us

all and said they reckon they can deliver. Sinn Fein, they could not

make anybody available for this discussion on our Shared Future

around the country, so think about that. The biggest nationalist party

in the country and they could not find anybody to be part of a

discussion on the Shared Future. Think about that. You let me say it.

Hold on, I want to take stock of what is said so let's take a look at

this. This is what Peter Robinson things at that and saying it is not

good enough. I do not think that is a fair reflection of what the SDLP

said and I have to pick up on Chris is as point. In the talks around the

Shared Future you will note that the SDLP submitted a number of

proposals. The SDLP supports positive action. Once... That is not

what I have heard. Whether it is real or not, is that an

opportunity? Should this country the grabbing it with both hands? I think

we should grab anything with both hands that is going to improve

immunity relations. My only son house left for Australia to go to

work so I feel very personally the lack of opportunity for young

people. I would like to see the collective executive looking at the

marketplace. It is a good start but not enough. I was at a function

yesterday and I heard there was a gap in skills in carpentry on

fitting out of boats, for example. I would like to hear how those gaps

are going to be filled. How does that help us in the Shared Future,

fixing boats? It is a job.But that is not what we are talking about. Is

this not interesting, but here we have an opportunity tonight to talk

about a Shared Future and you are talking about boats. No, I'm talking

about jobs. Jobs. Do not be facetious. Jobs are really important

that this is an opportunity tonight... I am talking about 10,000

work experience places and what of those young people to do at the

outcome of that? Just worked together for a year and then go back

into your own areas where you do not have an opportunity? This is about

providing real jobs and taking people out of poverty and giving

them hope for the future. Let's have a look at how you can get in touch

with us this evening. The numbers are on your screen. They make me

read this. While you are calling us, is that something that anyone in

this audience can get excited about, those 10,000 placements. Clearly,

Dolores does not think it is enough. I would just like to ask the panel,

in the interests of a Shared Future, should the panel not be

concentrating on real issues that unite us all, such as... I have seen

this problem come together like never before on the subject of

residential home closures. What the reality of that really meant to the

older people in our community really brought the province together like

never before. Do you not think that is a better way of bringing

communities together? Thank you. Indifferent. Wait until we get a

microphone to you. I am doing an employment scheme at the minute and

I'm just wondering how you are going to support these 10,000 work

placements? What support will be there at the start, the middle and

the finish Ye obviously there will have to be a financial incentive for

the people who take part. It is not just a young people's placement. We

have had some of the biggest organisations in Northern Ireland

coming forward and saying they want to help. Would they not be wanting

to sing it from the rooftops, impressing a campaign to bring our

young people together? Do these companies exist? Of course they do.

How many basements from a top company? One of the largest

companies in the whole of the UK, as soon as this announcement was made

spoke personally to the First Minister and stated they were

willing to participate in that, and I think they are looking at hundreds

or thousands of basements with that company. They are the largest

employer in Northern Ireland. you might ass well tell us. How much

are they going to be paid? We are co-costing that at the moment. We

are looking at what we need to add to that, to incentivise young people

to take part in these placements, and I recognise what you say...

does that help a shared future? you look at the trouble we had

before Christmas for example, a lot of the young people on the streets

involved in that trouble are young people who don't feel they have a

hope, who feel they don't have a stake in the community. They had

flags. I will tell you what, it was nothing to do with the young people,

it was to do with the fact that every single person round the table

were disagreeing and you diaagreed. That is what happened.

Hold on. With respect. Don't blame it on young people being unemployed.

I wasn't doing that. With respect, that so not my assessment. That is

the assessment of the community leaders we spoke to in the local

inner city community, they say part of the problem is social

deprivation, high unemployment. Young people who don't feel they

have a stake in their community. As for the flag, so... It is iron Ron

nick, Geoffrey knows more about the edetail of the Shared Future plans

than we do and as Danny Kennedy does? Take the time to go and find

out. We took the time.I don't wait for people to tell me. I get in

answer. He called people Jeremiahs. I don't wait for somebody to come

with the information, the people that I represent expect me to go and

get the information for them, to impart it to them, to help them, to

give them a leg up, and that is what our young people are looking for.

And Tay are fed up with then kind of thing. Here is a young person here.

Speaking about the 10,000 place, who is going to get these? As of you

probably know there is more young people than there is going to be

placement, how will you pick them? Will you pick those who have less

skill, have less of a support background? Because of that, or are

you going and then completely ignore those who have qualifications, that

need the support the get a job? Valid question. Does anybody know?

In the previous executive I served as employment and learning ministers

looking at and bringing forward schemes for young people,

particularly those who are Neets and need assistance, so there are

programme, that I was bringing forward, which have been continued

to be started by my party colleague and so, some of the announcements

made last week I think add to that, I welcome that, and I want to see

those programmes continue. This is important that we address some of

the answers also tonight, because maybe Geoffrey, when people get more

answers they will buy into this more, so, Shannon, what is your pack

ground? Have you spoken to people in the opposite community, if you like,

much? Yes, I am from a Protestant background, I will just say that,

and I have Catholic friend through a mutual love of music. There are ways

we can communicate, I am a part of a company that gives young people an

interest in politics. Does that push Shannon down the queue of getting a

placement, because she has spoken to people? And met people in the other

community? Or will I be ignored because I have spoken to them,

because I have GCSEs and I can't get a job. Is she further down the

queue? That is the kind of thing we want to encourage. The purpose is

two fold. One, it is to give young people genuine experience, and when

I talk to young people who have been through their education, or maybe

haven't had the education they hoped for, one of the things they tell me

is it it difficult to get a job when you don't have experience. That is

the first thing. The second thing is we want to encourage people to work

together. This is beyond, this is beyond getting a job. The purpose

was this is going to help us with our shared future. This will help

these people. Start to learn about another community. By working, by

doing what what in work. They will be working in work. What are the

placements going to be? If I can go back to what I said. It is

important. The young people who I talk to in the areas where there is

high social deprivation, they tell me that what they want is a job,

what they want is employment, what they want are opportunities, and I

think that part of the difficulty we have, in terms of the segregation of

our community, the divisions that exist, is that people don't feel the

peace process has been delivering for them in terms of employment

prospect, in terms of giving them hope, so in order to build a bridge,

the first thing you must do is build strong supports, on either sides. On

unless we have got that, the bricks you build across the middle is going

to be... You see the spirit there, and the passion, Eamonn, that

Geoffrey was clearly talking about. Do you think it will work, do you

think that will inspire Catholics and Protestants to work together?

Well, if it does I will be happy, I will be positive about that, and it

I can see Geoffrey's passion and hear it. But I mean do I think it's

a contradiction running through, all this, I have no doubt there are

members of the DUP and Sinn Fein who want to share plans for future and

make things better and if they work out I will be the first to applaud

them. The fact of the matter, in relation to the Shared Future, these

are two parties that are opposed to one another in their aims, so they

are forever building and burning bridges, simultaneously, last week,

I think it was Friday, we had a headline in the Irish times which

said, Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness presenting vision for the

future and the same day, the news letter we had a headline about the

DUP, organise organising to hang the flags at five new location,

meanwhile, Gerry Adams is ram panelling round, talking about the

need immediately for a border poll so we can mobilise two communities

separately in terms of orange and green. These contradictions are

there, and I think there are hints in what I have heard from your

studio about how to overcome all that. It is particularly struck by

the woman who said that the community is coming together, and

would come together, in defence of the residential homes which are

being closed under the health cut back, I mean, I know people in these

homes, I know the family, some are talking about militant action. They

would like to see... To be fair to the Health Minister, he has said...

I am not blaming. I am not blaming the Health Minister. He has taken

the brief away from the trust. Sorry, that is nibbling at the edges

of it. I am aware he has done that. What we still have is the prospect

of the closure under whatever auspices. What people in the studio

want, what MLAs could do to bring people together, if they would say

don't move out, keep your loved ones there, we appeal to the workers in

those places through the unions not to leave the job, the entire

community would rally to that. not what we are talking about

tonight. It is. This is my point. This is what you are talking about.

This is the only way, would you listen to me, this is what I am

saying. I am frustrated. This is how we will get a shared future. When we

come together, not because somebody has preached to us, to be nicer to

one another, but when we have to fight together for something.

Incidentally, when Geoffrey... APPLAUSE.

Geoffrey is talking about young people, he gives the amazing news

that young people say they want job, of course they do, they say that to

everybody because it is what they want. But listen to this, if you

believe that, stop the job cuts in the public service, stop destroying

jobs. Do that people will rally to you. There is too much nonsense

being talked here. Stephen, let Geoffrey reply and you can come in.

What does he have to say about the money wasted as a result of the

vision that could be going into the Health Service? I am in favour, yes.

United the schools and take on the Catholic Church. Take it on. Take it

on. 80% when you poll on this TV show say that people want their

children educated together. The First Minister said it is wrong we

segregate children on the basis of division at the earliest age and yet

the proposals amount to ten shared education campuses and no mention of

integrated education. Where is Noreen Campbell tonight? I would

like to support what has been said, because there is a gap, an absence

at the heart of this statement, which I think has left people

feeling disappointed. If we want our young people to be able to live and

work together in the future, why aren't they able to learn and play

together in school, side by side, as happens in our integrated schools?

Why is there no mention of integrated education at all in this,

when the simple state... ? shared campuses? That is what is

proposed They are not integrated. They are shared, it is a start

are separate schools, single identity school, coming together, on

one campus. Church based. Why have that if your vision is for a shared

future, of people living and working together, why would those children

not be sitting beside each other in the classroom, learning from each

other, with each other and about each other?

APPLAUSE. Well there are already some projects

in terms of shared education in Derry, where children are learning

together, for, where there is a poor science provision in one of the

school, they are separate school, a lot will be incremental, there is

parental choice and parents are choosing to send their children to

faith schools. There is a difference between shared

education and integrated education. Summer schools and camp, however

worthy won't cut it. Neither is to an extent, shared sites.

Fundamentally. We need to look again at integrated education and

southernly my party colleague has don a lot of work on that. What sort

of work? We are not opposed to integrated education. You support

the shared. That is enough for you. Is that not too little? Kids, they

can't be educated together, they can be in a shared space but keep them

apart? I don't think it is suggesting keeping them apart in

terms of shared education. Tay are separate building. Not at all, that

is a misinterpretation of it. And... They have different teachers.

they will be coming together. understand the point being made. You

cannot force people together. I am sorry, if you build a consensus in

Northern Ireland. The wrong way to build it is the alliance where where

you force your views on everybody else. You haul down the union flag

and believe that will... APPLAUSE.

Chris. Hold on. Chris has to reply. The last statement is false. Where

was the consensus They put for war ward a compromise provision. In

relation to integrated education, if there is so much support for it, a

modest proposal to set a target of 20% of children in integrated

education by 2020 and no-one saw fit to support that. That is a disgrey.

We need to understand what shared education is about. The way you were

painting it is fundamentally different from the reality. You

have, you have, if you can't take the big step at once, it is clear in

Northern Ireland we can't do that, and never mind being, I take

Eamonn's point about saving jobs and all of that, but the reality is the

Treasury say we are taking �4 billion out of your budget. �4

billion less, we have to look at how we can save money and at the aim

seem deliver good services -- same time. I think we can do it better by

having shared facility, if you have two schools in one town and they

need to be replaced you build them on one campus, they share

classrooms, in some cases it includes sharing teachers but it

respects parental choice. Until we can get people to embrace the

concept of integrated education and some do, then we have to take one

step in the right direction. Look at the young hands up here. There is a

guy in the white shirt. Hello. from educational programmes in other

countries, like Germany. They gain practical experience through

apprenticeships, and they have managed to keep their youth

unemployment down. Do these guys around this table, do the political

parties in Northern Ireland ins by you that they can fix our problem?

Not really. We need to look at countries like that. Go ahead. Reid

I would like to say I think Martin McGuinness is a hypocrite when he's

trying to promote the Shared Future. Because it is his party who has year

in, year out, been chipping away at my culture. And making me present

his party and what... He is not here to defend himself

because no one from his party is available, but he would say he is

trying to reach out to your community. But that is what his

proposal is about. He has done absolutely nothing for the loyalist

culture and year in, year out, they have been chipping away, Sinn Fein

and Martin McGuinness have been chipping away at our culture.

you. Obviously, he would deny that. As part of the Shared Future

strategy, Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness have talked about

removing peace walls by 2023. Residents Tina Patrick and Patsy

Canavan told us what it was like living in the shadow of the peace

Bolts and stones still come over. Sectarian slogans still shouted

across the wall. Unfortunately, it is home. I was born on this street

in 1969. We have been here since 1970, so this is my home. When you

think of the wall, you think of suspicion, you think of fear, you

think of community tension, and that is on both sides of the war. I have

never seen anyone across the peace line. The could meet your Protestant

friends and realise they are your neighbours. The people who live

adjacent to the wall I would say it creates that sense of safety.

we were children we used to go to the park and the plots. That was

over 40 years ago. It has turned into the peace line now. At the

bottom of the Avenue there is a pedestrian gate. It opens at 7am in

the morning until nine o'clock at night. If there is any trouble, and

there has been in the past, when that gate has had to close in an

emergency situation, if someone is locked outside that gate, they have

to do the deed tour of about a mile to get into their own home. --

detoured. I personally would like to see the walls down. I think once the

peace line comes down it would all dramatically change. I know for a

fact that if it came down there would be trouble. Both sides.

beyond the wall is difficult because young people fear going through the

gate. When you can't see what is beyond that gate, obviously, there

is a fear. We have to try to break down those barriers within people's

minds. Before we break down walls. While, in an opinion poll for the

Nolan Show, twice as many Protestants as Catholics said the

barriers should never come down. Take a look at this. 21% of

Protestants said the walls should never come down compared to 10% of

Catholics. To be fair, there was overall support for the timescale

that was set by the First and Deputy First Minister. 68% want the peace

walls removed within ten years. 22% said take them down now. But,

Jeffrey Donaldson, I know you are seeing that poll for the first time,

that there is certainly something to read into that in terms of Catholics

have been given and have much more confidence about peace walls coming

down that the Protestant community, and who is the biggest party

representing the Protestant community? You lot. Protestants

living in those areas that have the peace walls feel that their rights

have been removed from them, and this is why... In Belfast City

Council, we tried to represent those views. Sadly, they were overridden

by the Nationalists and the Alliance Party. It comes down to if we truly

want to build the kind of society that Chris and his party talk about,

where there is a Shared Future, and that is what I want, a society where

people can live side-by-side and our young people have jobs, that is what

we all want. You have to address the big issues like flags and parades.

And deal with the past by bringing in an independent chairman. We will

have to sit down and talk to all the parties and that is precisely what

we are doing but the point is this, you have to build confidence.

talked before. You had a committee before. You have to build the

confidence. But you did have a committee before that did no good

work and so you had to set up another committee. One side of the

community feels that their culture has been destroyed, and that is the

difficulty. Both sides of the community do not have the same level

of confidence in terms of the peace walls coming down. Why? It tells me

there is an indictment of leadership. A perfect example from

Jeffrey Donaldson, this is the largest party. We took of a loyalist

party being destroyed in Protestant communities. That is absurd. Is he

talking about when people have parades coming through the useful in

Belfast, including a man who killed a Catholic man within 50 yards of

the wall? How does that advanced loyalist Ultra at all? What we need

to see from Jeffrey Donaldson, instead of once again indulging this

nonsense, is leadership. It would be good if your party was here tonight

to give some leadership as well. With the greatest of respect, at

least I am here putting forward my point of view. Your party is nowhere

to be seen. When I talk about culture and identity, I mean British

identity, British way of life, and it is one that is being undermined,

the kind of society we want is one built on respect and tolerance, but

it has to work both ways. And does that mean the Finance

Minister Simon Wilson putting up as many union flags as he can wherever

he can? Is that mature politics at this time? The flags flown on the

buildings where it is appropriate. What is wrong with flying a flag of

this country? Sorry, Stephen. It is still the Stephen Nolan show. It is

not the Jeffrey Donaldson show yet. With the issue of separation that

exists, and it is very sobering to hear those experiences, but it is

painstakingly slow to make progress. I, in conjunction as a minister with

David Ford, the Justice Minister, we have made progress in areas of

Belfast but it is difficult and slow and you have to bring the people

with you and that is key to beat. And Key to that is to make sure that

you do not make them feel more vulnerable. It is OK for all the

politicians to say about a Shared Future and breaking the walls down.

Nobody is talking about an after-care package for the residents

who live on the interfaces. The police have come down and said their

resources are getting cut so they cannot promise a lot. So where is

the after-care package? I live on one of the most notorious interfaces

in the country. So when you hear the first in Deputy First Minister and

they have said there will be in conduction with the community, but

when you get the prospect of the peace walls coming down, doesn't

inspire you? Remap it is the unknown. The politicians do not come

near us as residents around the interfaces. It is OK to sit in your

big houses but it is the people on the streets, the only way you're

going to get a shared future is by having residents speaking to

residents. All of these parties to come in here

and speak. Ladies and gentlemen, give them a brand of applause. Here

is what is still to come on the programme tonight. A self publicist

or saviour of the Catholic Church? Father Brian D'Arcy will be in the

studio shortly. That's get a quick reminder of how you can get in touch

with us. -- lets get a quick get in touch. Tonight, on BBC

Northern Ireland -- one of BBC Northern Ireland 's broadcasting

legends. Is not me. Jackie Fullerton is celebrating his 70th birthday and

40 years in broadcasting. Here he is in action.

Jackie is with the man producing the magic at the moment. Are we on the

# Don't stop me now. Oh, for goodness sake.

# I'm a racing car passing by... Thank you very much.

# That is why they call me Mr Fahrenheit... I am not quite sure

what is happening there. Frank Lampard, thank you very much indeed.

John Terry. John? It is a football. The flag stays

down. What a moment for Northern Ireland! -- it is a good ball.

And some of the fans are offering me their handkerchiefs. Being the

Ballymena boy. They think I am in tears.

Maybe I am. long career, there has been a Dean

held in his honour in an demeanour. The tickets were too costly for me

so I could not go. -- in Ballymena. It has not stopped me gatecrashing,

with the help of a special friend. What is happening Eamonn? He is just

getting to the punchline. Let him finish this story here. What you

don't know, Jackie, is we are now going out live on BBC One on the

Nolan Show, everybody. APPLAUSE

Yes, all this attention. The biggest show in the country.

That is the one. Stephen, you have a message across that. You have a bit

of tape and we are going to let Jackie here, amongst the tributes,

people paying tributes, but Jerry Armstrong, another one sitting here

at the moment and he and Jackie reminiscent of the moment but here

is a special birthday message for you from Sir Alex Ferguson. Jackie

Fullerton, 70 years of age. My card! Where have the years gone? I

always enjoy your interviews. They were good questions. He always got

to the point and things but I always enjoy the interviews. Anyone who

gets to 70, a year beyond me, is doing well.

APPLAUSE. Sir Alex Ferguson Very good. You

see, people will wonder what he is talking about. He said anybody who

gets to 70 will be doing well. have trouble understanding him. You

are trouble understanding him, but I don't, because I am from Ballymena,

the girl is saying give me the microphone, they can't hear me.

Thank you, the opportunities to appear on the biggest show in the

country is quite something, and all your viewers and all the people in

the studio, they should be down here, in Ballymena. They really

should. APPLAUSE.

We have here in the hotel, how many people are here tonight? Almost 4

hundred on a Wednesday night. I don't do humility as Stephen know,

but I am humbled by the attendance, in austere times. When you think of

40 years, in the business, where has the time gone? How quickly has it

gone? I think it goes quickly, Eamonn, because you are looking

forward from one event to the next, I have a Cup Final to do or a rugby

game to do in two weeks time. All of a Sunday your life is going like

that there, and the thing is, you enjoy it, but when you get to relax

and you are totally relaxed about it and you have got rid of the nerve,

you find you are nearly 7 ah 0 and you are knackered!

-- 70. I have had a great, what is it they say, a great journey, I have

met so many people, like Graham Souness is here, Martin O'Neill, Pat

Jennings, Gerry Armstrong, all these people, we have boxing champions,

there are so many people, and, it is lovely those people have taken the

time, and I would say, people here tonight, are my friends. And that is

the best thing I have got through my career. What I can tell you Jackie,

also, it is very very clear, Jackie, if you can hear me tonight, it is

very very clear, that the audience here in this studio, they are your

friend, the reason you have been round a long time, is the audience

in Northern Ireland are your friends, and I don't think it would

be the same this show tonight if we didn't get a few kind of bum flat

notes from the man, who can sing as well as Jackie Fullerton. Look at

those eyebrows going now. Look at that. When we suggest this man could

maybe sing on the biggest show in the country.

Do you want me to sing now? It is up to you Jackie, does anything come to

mind? This is a song, honestly, a great memory for me is I went to

visit a little Mansell brating his one hundredth birthday in a

residential home. When I got there, they are sitting round, they have

cake, a little man of one hundred, and they, a few of the old dear,

they said Jackie, sing, sing. And the lit little guy with the

keyboard. My producer, he is here tonight, he said sing for them. So I

said OK, so I thought I will sing My Way. I am into it. This is what

Eamonn says about: If you don't hurry up and sing you will be on in

the morning. I am getting there! The guy says, OK. I went "And now... #

And I remember the next line is "The end is near "and the next was "And

so I face the final curtain." I had to change the words quickly. Give

Jackie Fullerton a round of applause. Thank you.

APPLAUSE P Thank you my friend.

I hope he has a fantastic night up there and thanks to Eamonn for doing

that. My next guest is one of the faces of the Catholic church in

Northern Ireland but his questioning on clerical celibacy and

homosexuality has led to him being reprimanded by the Vatican. Ladies

and gentlemen, please welcome Father Brian D'Arcy.

APPLAUSE. Good to see you. You see, you and I

have, we walked past each other a lot in the office and we exchange

pleasantries and I say hello, but I don't actually know that much about

you. Except what I have read and it intrigued me, why does such a genial

character like you, want to get into not afraid to get into so much

trouble? You take them on. Well, I am a genial character, in a quiet

sort of way. I don't like rows, the last thing I want do is row. I would

rather sit and listen to Jackie, he is a lovely friend and has great

stories. We cut him off before the singing really started? Wise!

Sometimes though, but the point of it is, if somebody take yours

character or somebody says something to you, I was brought up to believe

you should say your peace piece and say it gently, not in a fighting

way, that is all I do. I have been a journalist for so long. Not in a

fighting way? I don't fight.Not Catholic church, homosexuality.

Celibacy, do you want me to go on. You are taking them on. Some are

proud you are taking them on I think I have so. It is not so much taking

them on, I am putting the point of view of the people I have dealt with

for 44 yearses a a priest. I, all I am saying guy, there you have your

views and things and I respect your views, and I have never questioned

what you said, a core teaching of the Catholic church, a dogma, I have

a question, thes way people, the way we deal with people, like

homosexuals, like priests who should be married in my view, like women

who are so badly treated by so many church, including the Catholic

church, that is my job. That is my job to speak about that. Why would

you want to be part of that? It is not getting it wrong, they are not

listening to people doing it. The people have, you hear, you had it

tonight here, the people are the voices, there is a man said, we

don't listen to politician, we want to talk ourselves, and that is the

real power of the place. The people haven't worked have it worked out

for themselves, they don't need people from the top telling them

what to do. The people are struggling to be as good as they

can. Some of this conviction that you have, it is not just about what

you have heard from people, it is about how it has affected your life

personally, because you talked about falling in love. Yes.And then how

the Catholic church was in conflict. In conflict with what you might have

wanted to do. Having fallen in love. It is a human being, it is a great

gift to fall in love. That is the first thing. It's a great gift to

fall in love. It makes us strong. I have said as far as I am concerned I

would have been a better priest had I been allowed to marry I didn't

marry, because I had made a commitment to the Catholic church.

How deeply in love were you? Deeply enough in love I could have married.

But, but it is not a thing you make up your own mind about. That came

out in the documentary in the BBC. It is something you have to talk to

the person that you were with, and you have to talk about that. I have

decided no, I want to be a priest, and I cannot be a priest and be

married, so I had to make up my mind I couldn't be. But I am convinced,

Stephen, sorry for interrupt, I am convinced that it is not realistic,

to put a law that says a man can't marry if he wants to be a priest. If

somebody wants to be a priest and celibate, fantastic, that is great.

But if somebody wants to marry, and be a Catholic priest, that is also

fantastic. The Catholic church stopped you... No I stopped myself.

I stopped myself. Catholic church rule rules meant that you,

throughout your life, are not able to love another person. Yes. Not

even to commit myself in love to another person. I do love people.

But that one special person for your. I cannot fall in love.We

talked about this on the Radio 1 day, and it was compelling at the

time. That can be a very lonely place. It's a very lonely life,

and... How long -- lonely for you? Extraordinarily lonely. The thing

that made my life worst of all and it compounded this issue of falling

in love, was the fact I was abused as a child, and when you are abused

as a child and teenager again, by people who are in religion, that

leaves you with no confidence to do anything. When somebody falls in

love with you and you fall in love, that builds your canned. You would

like to be able to do it. You have hang ups about things for the rest

of your life when you have been abused. Like what?Your about to do

things, about sexuality, your about to express sexuality. Abusing the

child is one of temperature cruellest desperate awful things you

can do. It destroyed the confidence, it destroys ability. For example,

when the Vatican made the censure on me, the biggest thing it did to me

it ruined my confidence all over again. I became abused all over

again. And for a year, or 18 month, I was going round with a hump on my

back, and awful. I was devastated by it. They didn't need to do it to me.

I am not say saying somebody said how can we pinpoint Darcy. It

doesn't matter a fig to anybody in the Vatican. What does that say?

They haven't really heard of me. What does that say about them? You

are describing tonight you felt abused all over again. The reason I

am saying that, steefb, is, to point out the awfulness of abuse, you

never get over it. -- Stephen. You try to overcome and you manage it,

but when something hits you at the core of your being, it just

destroyed you all over again. you not tempted to walk away from it

all? I have been tempted to walk away many time, but a vocation is

not... How close did you get?I was very close on at least three

different occasion, one of which was last year. You know, there was more

than me who got the rap from the Vatican and the yellow card.

close? The point about it was, at that stage you say to yourself,

well, I have given almost 50 years of my life to the organisation, and

it was a great gift from God I was able do that, but they don't seem to

want me any more, that is what I was feeling at that stage, so I did

think about it and I spoke about it, that I do need to leave, because

nobody wants me in the place. But everybody, the people round the

place, when I, the documentary that Natalie did on me. On BBC One

Terrific documentary that was done and it was wonderful, but I had to

answer 4,500 letters, as a result of that. 99. 9% of them please don't

leave because you are the only voice we have left.

In the church. That is why, it is not, when you have a vocation, it is

not just satisfying yourself. It is you have to do something with your

people and for your people. Do you, Father Brian D'Arcy think the

Catholic church can sunshine -- survive long-term without allowing

priests to marry? It is difficult to say that in history. It probably

will survive in some shape fashion or form, but any church, Catholic

church, other church, any churches you like to take any Christian

church you like to take. It is not surviving, what the church's job is

to make the compassion, the love, the hope, the joy, the Mersey ofs

Christ living in people's lives. Specially poor people, marginalised

people. That is not about a structure or an institution, it is

about how it relates to its people. A mass or service in the Sunday,

helping people, or is it destroying people? It will not, live in

society, and cannot live in society, Stephen, until it comes to the

saying why we are here. Is it to sever our people or institution.

Christ said sever your people. Love the Lord your God with all your

heart. That is what I am supposed to do and that is what the church is

supposed to do. APPLAUSE.

And do you think that for example Pope Francis, do you think he will

move the church forward? I do.You are a big fan? That is why I am

happy. People are saying you are happier 19 you used to be. One of

the reasons is I have a new knee and I am not in as much pain as I used

to be. Pope Fran circumstances you can't expect him to change the whole

thing, but he seems to live in the same world as I do, he seems to be a

pastor and not an academic, he seems to say get over the robes and frilly

laces and sever the people. He is still an old man. It's a big role

for an elderly man. No yes about that. I agree with you, but John

XXIII changed the world in Fife years. If Francis changes the

structure of the institutions, that will change the church. Is that an

opportunity for you no come off the naughty step. Do you think you are

forgiven? What is the naughty step Do you think you are forgiven?

as long as they leave me alone I don't care if they forgive me or

not! APPLAUSE.

How do you know you are not forgiven? I haven't got the letter.

I got the yellow card and it hasn't been resended. If I get another one

I am gone. Honestly?Yes. Is it a letter or what? It is a phone call?

I didn't get anything, in the way, but my superior in Rome got a letter

to say would you ever get on to the superior in Ireland, to get on to

Darcy and tell him to shut up. Darcy shut up? Well, well, my

brother who died after that, and I spoke to him about this beforehand,

and because my family are very important to me, you know, and the

people are very important to me, and I shared it with people, and they, I

shared with my family. I didn't want to be a disgrace to them. So I told

them this has happened, my brother said what does it mean? And I said,

they wanted me to shut up and he said do they want you to start

telling lie?s he said all you have done is tell the trust. Your mother

and father wouldn't like it if you started telling lies, no, now. That

is the bottom line and I am going to tell the truth.

APPLAUSE. I have been wanting you into this

programme for quite a long time now. Where did you tackle me? At an

airport. I did.I was coming home and Stephen comes over, he could

have walked up to me any friend in the office in the BBC, but he walked