Episode 5 The Nolan Show


Episode 5

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claims that is what some women have told him. Is there are grey area?

:00:14.:00:19.

Tax avoidance is not illegal, but is it a moral. What is wrong with

:00:19.:00:23.

paying as little tax as you legally can? She is at the heart of a

:00:23.:00:28.

political row at Stormont, the voice of victims or a political pawn? Ann

:00:29.:00:33.

Travers is here to talk about her public and private battles. Jordan

:00:33.:00:43.
:00:43.:01:13.

O'Keefe from Britain's Got Talent is on this show. Welcome along. Another

:01:13.:01:17.

big show. There are so many people at home who want to get in touch

:01:17.:01:25.

with us. Let us take a look at how to do so. If you're calling us,

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08459 555678. Calls cost 5p per minute. There will be an additional

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connection fee. Calls from mobiles may cost considerably more. If you

:01:35.:01:40.

are tweeting as it is that @stephennolan and our hashtag is

:01:40.:01:50.

#BBCNolan. You can text us on 81771. Now, the former Crimewatch presenter

:01:50.:01:53.

Nick Ross provoked a furious response at the weekend after

:01:53.:01:58.

extracts from his book Crime were published. He talks about women he

:01:58.:02:04.

spoke to. Let us look at what he said. He said for them, rape is not

:02:04.:02:13.

always rape. Let us listen to what he told us this week. Do you think

:02:13.:02:18.

if the woman gets drunk and gets into bed with someone and claims she

:02:18.:02:25.

was raped, do you think she is partly responsible? Is she to blame,

:02:25.:02:34.

no. She partly responsible? Of course she is. Just as a man would

:02:34.:02:39.

be if he put himself in a vulnerable situation. Any of us who put

:02:39.:02:44.

ourselves into a situation where we are vulnerable to crime must take

:02:45.:02:49.

responsibility. Heidi McAlpin, anyone who puts themselves into a

:02:49.:02:53.

vulnerable position, must take responsibility. I do not see a

:02:53.:03:03.

problem with what he said. People are getting sensational about this.

:03:03.:03:06.

He is a man talking about it, so that adds a different layer. If you

:03:06.:03:10.

are a woman who has drunk a lot and is out with your friends, and you

:03:10.:03:15.

end up in a vulnerable situation, is it not better to put in place

:03:15.:03:22.

circumstances that will not put you in that position? So if you are

:03:22.:03:30.

woman at in that situation, what? Binge drinking is a big problem.

:03:30.:03:35.

you partly responsible? It is not about responsibility. If you are

:03:35.:03:45.
:03:45.:03:47.

raped, you are a victim. My point is... Do not get to that point of

:03:47.:03:49.

the night. Stay with friends. Be careful of how much you are

:03:49.:03:53.

drinking. There are men out there who will prey on women who are

:03:54.:03:56.

vulnerable. They are vulnerable because they have been drinking or

:03:56.:04:01.

got lost from their friends. That is my problem with the people who are

:04:01.:04:06.

jumping on Nick Ross and saying that he is wrong. Let us be open and

:04:06.:04:13.

honest about this. He went on to talk about, you would not leave a

:04:13.:04:21.

laptop in the back of your car! Purred Nick Ross. He is very naive

:04:21.:04:30.

to make such a trivial comparison. -- who are Nick Ross. I do not

:04:30.:04:38.

totally disagree. Rape is one of the most heedless crimes that can be

:04:38.:04:46.

perpetrated on anyone. The woman who have allegedly been abducted in

:04:46.:04:51.

America, who were used as slaves, the girl in India who was brutally

:04:51.:04:56.

raped while she was sitting with her boyfriend and then thrown off a

:04:56.:05:02.

bus. We have the Pakistani guys in England who abused girls. These sort

:05:02.:05:10.

of people are misogynistic, these are wicked, nasty evil men. Is that

:05:10.:05:15.

not every rapist? This is where I have the problem. There are loads of

:05:15.:05:22.

young people and when we were all young, we would have taken a drink,

:05:22.:05:25.

went out with our mates and you would have a young fella and I young

:05:25.:05:31.

girl... This is the problem, you cannot cut to the chase, you have to

:05:31.:05:36.

think about the broader issue. You can not make a comparison to what

:05:36.:05:42.

I've talked about in America, , you cannot make a comparison of what

:05:42.:05:47.

happened to those women and a couple of guys and girls going out for a

:05:47.:05:53.

bit of a drink. The guy is putting himself in a position where he could

:05:53.:05:57.

be accused of rape and the girl is putting herself into a position

:05:58.:06:05.

where she could be raped. Both of them have a responsibility. He talks

:06:05.:06:10.

about different grades of rape. Do you think we should look at it in

:06:10.:06:16.

different circumstances? We look at murder in different ways. I cannot

:06:16.:06:22.

claim that a young guy who gets drunk, meets a girl who gets drunk

:06:22.:06:26.

and the two of them have not got the ability to rationalise what they are

:06:27.:06:33.

doing and then one of them might have a regret in the morning and

:06:33.:06:36.

accuse the guy of rape, because the two of them are not able to think

:06:36.:06:44.

rationally. The law is really clear about this. The law talks about

:06:44.:06:49.

consent, unless you are sure that an individual is in the position to

:06:50.:06:57.

give consent, they do not have to resist. Then add guys should never

:06:57.:07:02.

pick up a girl who is drunk. You are putting yourself at a position where

:07:02.:07:10.

you can be accused of something that you might not have intended to do.

:07:10.:07:15.

There are two issues here. One issue relates to how women can keep

:07:15.:07:20.

themselves safe and a separate issue is to do with men who perpetrate

:07:20.:07:27.

rape. I think what happened with Nick Ross is that he merged the two.

:07:27.:07:33.

The perpetration of rape is about nonconsensual sex or reckless as to

:07:33.:07:40.

whether the woman or man consented to sex. I think the perpetration of

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rape lies solely with the perpetrator. It is as simple as

:07:45.:07:50.

that. No one is saying that it doesn't. What we are debating now is

:07:50.:07:55.

do not get to that stage of the night. If anyone who has been raped

:07:55.:07:59.

could rewind the clock and change the course of the night so they did

:07:59.:08:09.

not become a victim, they would do that. Rape is not perpetrated by

:08:09.:08:15.

someone being dragged up a lane, the vast majority of rates occur by

:08:15.:08:25.
:08:25.:08:25.

someone close to the victim. Let me go to the very back row. It does not

:08:25.:08:30.

matter how much woman I drink has. A man should have more respect than to

:08:30.:08:37.

go to a woman, if she says no, rape is rape. What if she does not say

:08:37.:08:45.

anything? Then it is her fault. You have to speak up. So let us look at

:08:45.:08:51.

some of the circumstances. If someone is in bed and they are

:08:51.:08:59.

clearly so drunk that they cannot give consent. A man should know

:08:59.:09:05.

better. It is not the individual's fault? And man should have more

:09:05.:09:14.

respect than to go near her. There are some dangerous messages being

:09:14.:09:18.

arbitrated. It starts with Nick Ross talking about the sensitive issue

:09:18.:09:21.

about which he has little knowledge. If there are victims of rape

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watching this programme, they should in no way take from this message

:09:25.:09:31.

that they are to blame. Whether they were drunk or naked in the street,

:09:31.:09:36.

it is not an indication for someone to have sex with them. Introducing a

:09:36.:09:42.

level of ambiguity, about graduations, is wholly unhelpful.

:09:42.:09:47.

Surely, you cannot just say it is ambiguous. It is not. It is clear to

:09:47.:09:53.

me. I have the right to wear what I want, if I want to wear a short

:09:53.:10:02.

skirt, a low top... Why are you talking about different grades of

:10:02.:10:08.

rape? When you have young people who are consuming alcohol, having a good

:10:08.:10:16.

time, doing what, and they are heady with the atmosphere and the drink,

:10:16.:10:22.

they are not in any position to make any rational decision, neither the

:10:22.:10:26.

man or the woman. You cannot develop a situation where you decide because

:10:26.:10:31.

someone is not fit to say yes or no that you have fun -- some form of

:10:31.:10:39.

consent. You are then rapist. People that perpetrate it rapist. Whether

:10:39.:10:45.

it is your husband, a boyfriend or someone has got you intoxicated.

:10:45.:10:49.

Nick is in a timewarp. He has gone back 50 years and is damaging the

:10:49.:10:54.

good work done ie different organisations which have helped

:10:54.:11:04.
:11:04.:11:06.

victims and encourage them to come forward. Nick Ross has come out and

:11:06.:11:13.

said that his words were taken and spun for sensationalist media and

:11:13.:11:19.

also he said that it is the antithesis of what his argument is.

:11:19.:11:29.
:11:29.:11:30.

One second. The chapter has been put on the Internet in an effort by the

:11:30.:11:33.

publishers to clarify this confusion. I read the chapter and I

:11:33.:11:40.

did not gain anything by reading it, because I just do not get this. You

:11:40.:11:45.

would not leave a laptop in the back of your car, at bank would not leave

:11:45.:11:54.

money beside the door? That is rubbish. He is a journalist who has

:11:54.:11:59.

chosen particular surveys to try and serve his own purpose. He talks

:11:59.:12:02.

about men and women in domestic violence relationships and tries to

:12:02.:12:12.
:12:12.:12:24.

We are allowed to walk around with what we want. There is a mixed

:12:24.:12:28.

message from you tonight. You are talking about the responsibility of

:12:28.:12:32.

someone who gets drunk. I am talking about young people who go

:12:32.:12:36.

out and what happens to them. I am not talking about a woman who is

:12:36.:12:41.

innocent to walking home, she has every right. If somebody rapes

:12:41.:12:47.

her... Did you see the way you introduce words like innocently?

:12:47.:12:52.

Who was it that said, serious rape? There is not a serious rape and no

:12:52.:12:57.

serious rape. It is just rape. is a war crime, perpetrated to

:12:57.:13:04.

dominate. We do not live in the utopian society, so protect

:13:04.:13:11.

yourself if you can. This whole subject area is very pertinent to

:13:11.:13:18.

you, what has happened to you in your life. Yes. I think that what

:13:18.:13:22.

we need to bear in mind is that rape is rape. The way that it has

:13:22.:13:26.

happened may have a different impact on people. I think one of

:13:26.:13:31.

the things that Nick was trying to save is that some women and men do

:13:31.:13:35.

not realise that there has been raped, because people do not

:13:35.:13:38.

understand what sexual violence and rape is. Sometimes when they

:13:39.:13:43.

realise they have been raped, it is a horror to them to even begin to

:13:43.:13:47.

accept that they have been raped. I think what we have to look at is

:13:47.:13:53.

giving out these messages that say that you have made yourself

:13:53.:13:58.

available. In the same way that... Rather than make yourself available,

:13:58.:14:02.

what about those who use language, you have left to suffer vulnerable?

:14:02.:14:08.

Is that fair to debate or not? Is that off-limits? I think that what

:14:08.:14:12.

we have to look at, when you are talking about people going out and

:14:12.:14:17.

getting drunk, what you are not often seeing is the fact that the

:14:17.:14:20.

perpetrators are the ones getting you drunk to get you into that

:14:20.:14:24.

honourable position in the first place. That is why many victims

:14:24.:14:28.

will not go forward because they think, I was drunk, it must have

:14:28.:14:33.

been my fault. That is the argument, or that is the difficulty that lot

:14:33.:14:36.

of women have and men have. They think it is their fault that the

:14:37.:14:42.

rate has happened. What these comments by Nick Ross has done has

:14:42.:14:48.

a reinforced Fatah really bad time for people the fact -- reinforced

:14:48.:14:51.

at a really bad time for people the fact that they are being made to

:14:51.:14:57.

feel they are responsible. As a survivor of rape herself, can you

:14:57.:15:03.

put words to the impact it has on an individual long-term? That

:15:03.:15:11.

brittle act? In terms of how it impact to life, your life can

:15:11.:15:18.

totally changed overnight as a result of what happens. Many people

:15:18.:15:21.

have post-traumatic stress disorder, that can go on for months and years.

:15:21.:15:29.

For some people it will go on all their lives. It can have all sorts

:15:29.:15:31.

of long-term mental health impact, it could have physical health

:15:31.:15:37.

impacts. It can have lots of invitations and I do not think we

:15:37.:15:41.

even know yet to the extent to that rape can have on people and the

:15:41.:15:45.

balance but it does. Do you welcome the debate around it ought do you

:15:45.:15:48.

think that people like Nick Ross should not even start the debate,

:15:48.:15:52.

talking about you would not leave a sackful of money at the door of a

:15:52.:15:57.

bank? I don't think the way he has introduced the debate is helpful.

:15:57.:16:02.

We are in a very difficult time. We got to a stage where suddenly

:16:02.:16:07.

victims, we were saying, yes, we will believe you. Even 20 years

:16:07.:16:11.

later, we will believe you. Then we have the question of anonymity at

:16:11.:16:15.

protecting the rapist. We are in a time when we are trying to throw

:16:15.:16:18.

back the whole time and say, we will give with one hand but take a

:16:18.:16:23.

lot more with another. What we are saying is, you have got to work

:16:23.:16:27.

harder to prove that you are a victim. There are some young people

:16:27.:16:33.

in the audience tonight he might not know your story, it was

:16:33.:16:38.

headline news. It is a very personal story to you. It is my

:16:38.:16:45.

life. People came up with those same arguments 27 years ago, and

:16:45.:16:50.

people were saying at the time, rape is about what you are wearing.

:16:50.:16:54.

If you wanted to use that in my scenario, I had a summer dress, it

:16:54.:16:58.

came to just above my knee, and I had a baggy jumper on. I could not

:16:58.:17:03.

win either way. I was not going anywhere, I was staying in my house

:17:03.:17:10.

that day. People broke into my house. They came, allegedly, to

:17:10.:17:14.

burgle the place in the first instance. That changed. There are

:17:14.:17:17.

different stories as to whether that was in everybody's mind he

:17:17.:17:23.

came that day. I do not know the ultimate truth. I was raped, I was

:17:23.:17:28.

assaulted. My dad was beaten up, my boyfriend was beaten up. They both

:17:28.:17:35.

had fractured skulls. We were left in a horrendous situation. And then

:17:35.:17:40.

you get these accusations thrown at you. And although some people will

:17:40.:17:44.

talk about radiation, the law actually does that anyway. --

:17:44.:17:52.

talking about radiation. The problem is some forces are issuing

:17:52.:17:56.

cautions when some people have admitted rape. I know this is a

:17:56.:18:00.

tough question from me. Because of what has happened to you, would you

:18:00.:18:04.

make a distinction between people who would break into a home and

:18:04.:18:08.

brutalise you and your family in that way, and someone who is drunk

:18:08.:18:16.

and did not ask for consent? think if you are talking about

:18:16.:18:21.

whether somebody is still a rapist, yes, they are still a rapist. I

:18:21.:18:26.

think there are different ways that the law views, and currently that

:18:26.:18:30.

is under debate as well, with Sentencing Council, about the

:18:30.:18:34.

different levels of violence that can be incorporated into the crime.

:18:34.:18:38.

It does not take away the fact that if you have not got consent, and

:18:38.:18:44.

that is not, she did not say yes, or whatever. You have to have

:18:44.:18:53.

consent. Thank you so much. A young man here, second row. I was

:18:53.:18:59.

thinking, going back to the original statement, is the main

:18:59.:19:03.

problem not the word partially responsible? Surely, if you leave

:19:03.:19:08.

your laptop in the car, using his own analogy, you won not partially

:19:08.:19:14.

responsible if it gets storeman. You are wiser not to leave it, but

:19:14.:19:20.

you are not responsible for the crime. It is getting back to what I

:19:20.:19:25.

originally said, Nick Ross did not say that rape, somebody who is

:19:25.:19:29.

raped is anything other than the victim. My point is still the same.

:19:29.:19:34.

If there is any way you can avoid being in a vulnerable situation,

:19:34.:19:39.

whether you're a man or woman, even a man who get inebriated and he is

:19:39.:19:43.

in danger of being beaten up in the street. There are different levels

:19:43.:19:48.

of a novelty you can have. As you get more drunk, -- have run well

:19:48.:19:55.

banality you can have. -- vulnerability. He has compared a

:19:55.:19:59.

crime against property against an intimate crime against a person.

:19:59.:20:03.

The only positive out of this thing will be for predators, those people

:20:03.:20:08.

who take advantage of the vulnerable. They will use this as

:20:08.:20:13.

an excuse that what they did... Those of sorts -- those sort of

:20:13.:20:19.

people can use anything as an excuse. He has got a book to sell.

:20:19.:20:23.

He has put that out there, he has got a book to sell. From my own

:20:23.:20:27.

point of view, and also from Heidi's point of view, and we all

:20:27.:20:30.

agree to a certain degree of what we are saying, we all absolutely

:20:31.:20:35.

agree that rape is wrong. A woman should not be attacked if she is on

:20:35.:20:40.

her own, or walking home, she has every right to wear what she wants.

:20:40.:20:44.

We live in a democracy, we are allowed to do what we want. There

:20:44.:20:47.

are not -- it is not our fault that there are some people out there who

:20:47.:20:54.

will attack us. We have to protect ourselves from these people. I want

:20:54.:20:58.

to know how you think you are making victims field. You have

:20:58.:21:02.

created a hierarchy of victims of the situation. The focus needs to

:21:02.:21:06.

be on teaching men not to rape, not telling women, maybe you should not

:21:06.:21:13.

have that much to drink. I didn't say. That is in a perfect world.

:21:13.:21:19.

That would absolutely be in the case. We need to talk about this

:21:19.:21:24.

openly without people bearing down and saying, you are saying that

:21:24.:21:30.

forms of rape come in different grades of seriousness. It is in a

:21:30.:21:36.

judgmental and balanced way. That is why so few people come forward.

:21:36.:21:41.

They fear the stigmatisation. Nick Ross is particularly guilty because

:21:41.:21:46.

he is a man of influence who had a position as a celebrity around

:21:46.:21:52.

Crimewatch. What he says, people will listen to. That is dangerous.

:21:52.:21:56.

Can I just go back, this young lady in the audience, I can say that you

:21:56.:22:02.

are visibly upset. I am upset, because I know people who have been

:22:02.:22:06.

victims of this crime. Just thinking about the offence that you

:22:06.:22:10.

are causing him what you are saying. You are transferring responsibility,

:22:11.:22:15.

at the end of the day, it is the rapist to make the decision to rape.

:22:15.:22:18.

A woman who does not -- a woman does not have responsibility to

:22:18.:22:22.

live her life in fear and think about, I should not have any fun

:22:22.:22:25.

because I might get raped. What kind of message is that? I agree

:22:25.:22:32.

with you. I did not say that. You're absolutely right. We have

:22:32.:22:37.

every right to do what we want. But it is not our fault that there are

:22:37.:22:41.

prats out there who will force their way on to us. Nick Ross, to

:22:41.:22:45.

be fair to him, because I spoke to him at length, he also said that in

:22:45.:22:52.

his view, rape is always break and he did say that this is what women

:22:52.:22:56.

who he interviewed said to him who had been raped. Is he is entitled

:22:56.:23:02.

to his views? I do not know who Nick Ross spoke to. I have been

:23:02.:23:09.

working with victims of sexual abuse, rape, for nearly 30 years.

:23:09.:23:14.

And the women I have worked with fall into three categories. There

:23:14.:23:17.

are women who had been raped and understand they have been raped.

:23:17.:23:24.

And they want to go to the police. As a side, and to that, over the

:23:24.:23:30.

last few years, I remember when I start of this area of work. It was

:23:30.:23:36.

appalling, and the police have worked very hard to create teams of

:23:36.:23:39.

specialists staff who are very sensitive to the victims. I think

:23:39.:23:44.

they have to be commended for that. You have one group of women who had

:23:44.:23:52.

been assaulted who want to go and report. And the whole journey

:23:52.:23:56.

through the courts system is a horrendous, absolutely horrendous.

:23:56.:24:00.

Then there is a second group of women who have been sexually

:24:00.:24:04.

assaulted and they realise that and they have no intention of going

:24:04.:24:08.

anywhere near court. Then there is a set -- a third group, and this is

:24:08.:24:13.

perhaps the group that Nick Ross was talking to, who have been raped

:24:13.:24:18.

and do not understand that rape within marriage is still right.

:24:18.:24:24.

me go to the young lady -- a rape within marriage is still rape. Let

:24:24.:24:31.

me go to this young lady. What about that unfortunate person who

:24:31.:24:36.

gets a drink spiked after one drink, a man comes along who is a knight

:24:36.:24:42.

in shining armour, but he is not, he is the actual rapist. It is not

:24:42.:24:46.

the fault of the moment when she is drunk. The point is, we have to

:24:46.:24:52.

protect ourselves. We are out of time. We can continue this online

:24:52.:24:57.

now, on Twitter. And on the radio show tomorrow morning. Details will

:24:57.:25:07.
:25:07.:25:11.

Here is what is still to come on the programme tonight. It is legal,

:25:11.:25:15.

so what is wrong with companies or individuals avoiding tax? Be we

:25:15.:25:19.

really expect Google, Amazon or anybody else to pay more than they

:25:19.:25:29.
:25:29.:25:31.

have to? We will be talking about that later on. Now, in 1984, Mary

:25:31.:25:36.

Travers was shot dead by the IRA. She was 23 years old. Have much

:25:36.:25:41.

straight father, Tom, the intended target, survived but was left

:25:41.:25:46.

seriously injured. The ambush happened when the family were

:25:46.:25:51.

leaving Mass in south Belfast. One of those jailed over her role in

:25:51.:25:56.

the killing was for 19 year-old Mary McArdle. She was sentenced to

:25:56.:26:02.

life but released in the Good Friday Agreement. In 2010, she was

:26:02.:26:09.

appointed an adviser to the Sinn Fein Cultural Minister Caral Ni

:26:09.:26:18.

Chuilin. It devastated and Travers, her sister. She has been

:26:18.:26:28.
:26:28.:26:39.

campaigning to prevent prisoners political debate. Can you explain to

:26:39.:26:46.

me. You are comfortable with text prisoners being ministers, but not

:26:46.:26:52.

being special advisers, how is that logical? First of all, this bill is

:26:52.:26:56.

not just a Bill to stop paramilitary is getting jobs are special

:26:56.:27:01.

advisers, this. Anyone with a criminal conviction of five years or

:27:01.:27:11.
:27:11.:27:36.

longer, that is anyone. Whether it is Republican, loyalists, . The

:27:36.:27:44.

Minister was elected, the Minister has a mandate, people know their

:27:44.:27:48.

background, they know who they are voting for. The special adviser is

:27:48.:27:54.

given the position by the party. They are given this position. They

:27:54.:28:00.

are getting between �80,000 and �90,000 per year so victims find

:28:00.:28:05.

themselves in a position that they are contributing to the person who

:28:05.:28:11.

was involved in the crime. I see that. Because politicians are also

:28:11.:28:21.
:28:21.:28:22.

funded from our taxes, it is public money that is paying for them. You

:28:22.:28:26.

support ex-prisoners being politicians, being ministers,

:28:26.:28:32.

running departments, making decisions that will will affect

:28:32.:28:40.

hundreds of thousands of people. Yet special advisers is a no-no. I feel

:28:40.:28:46.

that politicians have an absolute responsibility to victims. There are

:28:46.:28:52.

thousands of victims in this country and thousands who have also left

:28:52.:28:59.

this country because they cannot live here any longer. I feel that

:28:59.:29:04.

when Mary McArdle was appointed, before she was appointed, I had

:29:05.:29:12.

moved on with my life. I did not think about her, much, I obviously

:29:12.:29:20.

remember my sister, but when she was appointed, it brought me back to a

:29:20.:29:29.

place where I never ever wanted to go back to. Can I ask, would you

:29:29.:29:39.
:29:39.:29:41.

accept Mary McArdle as a teacher in this country? I am talking about the

:29:41.:29:46.

special adviser Bill, there are vetting procedures for teachers.

:29:46.:29:55.

any ex-prisoner. Would you accept them as a teacher, a lawyer, as a

:29:55.:30:05.
:30:05.:30:07.

doctor, a nurse? Those positions are privately paid for... There are

:30:07.:30:11.

different vetting procedures. I do not have a problem with former

:30:11.:30:18.

prisoners getting jobs and moving on, that is not what I am about. I

:30:18.:30:22.

am not being vindictive towards ex-prisoners, asking them to live

:30:22.:30:26.

their lives in sackcloth and ashes, I am asking for consideration to

:30:26.:30:33.

their victims. We are talking about Stormont, it is not necessary. We

:30:33.:30:39.

are 15 years on from the Good Friday Agreement, is it necessary now to

:30:39.:30:44.

have this elite group of people who are gifted these positions to say,

:30:44.:30:49.

well done for being party loyal and well done for what you did? That is

:30:49.:30:57.

the message it sends out to me about is my right to have that. Does an

:30:57.:31:05.

ex-prisoner have a right to move on? Society has said we accept that you

:31:05.:31:14.

will move on. Is that what we have done? I think that we have all

:31:14.:31:20.

accepted a huge amount for peace. I think it is a really cruel thing to

:31:20.:31:24.

do to victims to turn around and say to a victim that because you are not

:31:24.:31:29.

happy, because you have spoken out about something, because it has

:31:29.:31:38.

appalled you so much, that you are in some way, against the peace

:31:38.:31:41.

process. It is in turn what people do to victims. We have had a

:31:41.:31:45.

conversation about rape. It has been put back on to me that it is my

:31:45.:31:50.

fault that I cannot accept what former prisoners do. My present is

:31:50.:31:56.

what my past is. I am not able to move on. Yes, I have got married and

:31:56.:32:06.
:32:06.:32:08.

had children, but... This is very important. This bill is not just

:32:08.:32:18.

about former political prisoners, and also... It would also be a fact

:32:18.:32:21.

in Northern Ireland, this is so complex, that no one speaks for all

:32:21.:32:26.

victims and there will be people screaming out that they believe they

:32:26.:32:32.

are victim of collusion, a victim of the British state. Absolutely. I am

:32:32.:32:39.

not speaking for all victims. What I said on Thursday was misrepresented

:32:39.:32:43.

when I said this bill was for all victims. How could I presume that I

:32:43.:32:49.

speak for all victims? June what strikes me looking at this audience,

:32:49.:32:55.

there would be quite a few, because we get a huge mix of an audience and

:32:55.:33:00.

I am looking at a lot of young faces in this audience. They probably,

:33:00.:33:06.

with all due respect, will not know your story and will not understand

:33:06.:33:14.

your trauma. Can you tell them, very quickly? You were 14 years old.

:33:14.:33:24.
:33:24.:33:27.

was. I had been to an earlier Mass and my sister, who was 23, and in

:33:27.:33:31.

her first teaching job, was walking home from Mass with my parents. They

:33:31.:33:38.

were chatting about her and how she was taking her children to make

:33:38.:33:45.

their first confessions. They were about 200 yards from our home. They

:33:45.:33:54.

heard a gunshot. My dad thought that he heard somebody say, somebody has

:33:54.:34:03.

been shot and they stopped and he turned around and he saw a map. A

:34:03.:34:07.

man was waving something underneath some newspapers. He said to him,

:34:07.:34:15.

what do you want? The man said, it is you that we want.

:34:15.:34:20.

Simultaneously, Mary said, daddy, that man has a gun and she said

:34:20.:34:27.

that, another gunman from across the road, shot her once in the back. My

:34:27.:34:33.

sister, Mary. She fell into my mother's arms. As she was lying

:34:33.:34:39.

dying, the gunman walked over to my mother and help a gun to her head,

:34:39.:34:44.

where he tried to fire it three times, but it jammed. In the

:34:44.:34:47.

meantime, the other gunman stood over my father and put six bullets

:34:47.:34:54.

into him. The first I knew about it was my brother ran into my bedroom

:34:54.:35:00.

and told me to come quickly, mother and father had been shot. I asked

:35:00.:35:09.

what he meant. He said hurry up! I ran out of the house and he ran into

:35:09.:35:15.

the bedroom of my parents. My dad would not have any security. He was

:35:15.:35:19.

a resident magistrate. He would not have any security because he did not

:35:19.:35:26.

want to put the lives of anyone else at risk and he would not carry a

:35:26.:35:33.

gun. Police -- Paul was on the police radio. He got through to the

:35:33.:35:37.

emergency services, my other brother was on the phone and I ran down and

:35:37.:35:43.

I saw my mother leaning over my dad, saying my per husband, someone

:35:43.:35:52.

please help him. Mary was lying awkwardly am a gurgling. Dad was

:35:52.:35:56.

trying to undo his tie. My brother Martin came down with me and it was

:35:56.:36:04.

just bedlam. Mary McArdle, who was 19, she was arrested a short

:36:04.:36:09.

distance away, walking a dog. She was found to have two handguns

:36:09.:36:15.

strapped to her legs in surgical socks. She was convicted of murder,

:36:15.:36:21.

attempted murder and a number of firearms offences. The gunman that

:36:21.:36:26.

day had been wearing wigs to disguise themselves. When they got

:36:26.:36:30.

up and when Mary McArdle got up on that morning, they had a different

:36:30.:36:35.

experience from my parents and my family. When my parents are my

:36:35.:36:40.

sister got up and they had their breakfast, they were planning to go

:36:40.:36:46.

to Mass and spend the rest of the day, how it was to be. Whereas the

:36:46.:36:55.

gunman and Mary McArdle got up, got dressed, she put on surgical

:36:55.:37:00.

stockings, the gunman took their guns and there are wigs and went out

:37:00.:37:05.

knowing that they were going to commit murder that day. Knowing that

:37:05.:37:10.

my father, or hoping that my father would not be coming home to his

:37:10.:37:18.

family. You know, I understand what you are saying and I know at the

:37:18.:37:24.

start of the interview you asked me about the bill. These jobs are

:37:24.:37:34.
:37:34.:37:35.

gifted. There was no need... Victims have got to be allowed to speak up.

:37:35.:37:42.

I am blessed that I have been given that chance. If I caused you any

:37:42.:37:48.

offence, I am deeply sorry, but I want to keep this balanced. It is

:37:48.:37:58.
:37:58.:38:00.

Northern Ireland, people will have different views. What is Mary

:38:01.:38:10.
:38:11.:38:12.

McArdle, and I do not know her, but what if every inch of her body is

:38:12.:38:18.

thrusting towards trying to create a peaceful society. What if she is

:38:18.:38:24.

deeply sorry for reformed or she would say, there was a conflict and

:38:24.:38:28.

a different context back then, and that she is trying to make Northern

:38:28.:38:34.

Ireland a safe place? We do not know that and I do not know that, but

:38:34.:38:42.

what if? Would you forgive her? is very easy. Mary McArdle has said

:38:42.:38:50.

that my sister's murder was a tragic mistake. She has said that publicly.

:38:50.:38:55.

She has never said sorry. She also said that she could not say anything

:38:55.:39:00.

more because it would risk offending me, in other words she would justify

:39:00.:39:10.
:39:10.:39:11.

going out and shooting my father. The historical enquiries team wrote

:39:11.:39:15.

to her and asked for her help in their investigation and she ignored

:39:15.:39:25.
:39:25.:39:29.

the letter. I wonder, former prisoners and people involved in the

:39:29.:39:36.

troubles, yes they are moving forward, who would not want to have

:39:36.:39:40.

peace? I do not know one single family who would not want to have

:39:40.:39:47.

peace. I do not know one. I did not... After my sister was murdered,

:39:47.:39:51.

I did not go and join a loyalist organisation or go out and murder. I

:39:51.:40:00.

had the opportunity, the flat that the gunman head in, I had the

:40:00.:40:03.

opportunity to actually... This guy was walking across the road and I

:40:03.:40:06.

had the opportunity to knock him down, but I did not do that. That

:40:06.:40:14.

was my choice. I think it is time the politicians started showing the

:40:14.:40:24.
:40:24.:40:24.

victims and respect them. I know there will be a raft of different

:40:24.:40:30.

opinion throughout Northern Ireland. You can contact us on Twitter and on

:40:30.:40:34.

our radio show. We can continue this discussion. Please give her a round

:40:34.:40:44.
:40:44.:40:54.

of applause. In terms of a mix of a show, you get a sense, we were

:40:54.:40:59.

talking about rape at the top of the programme, we were talking about a

:40:59.:41:05.

lady there who is clearly deeply traumatised, and you just know that

:41:05.:41:07.

elsewhere in Northern Ireland people will be saying different things

:41:07.:41:12.

about that interview and now we are going to talk about a talent show

:41:12.:41:17.

season on television. A few weeks ago we had Connor Scott from The

:41:17.:41:23.

Voice on and now it is the turn of Jordan O'Keefe, a trainee estate

:41:23.:41:27.

agent who blew the judges away on Britain's Got Talent with his

:41:27.:41:37.
:41:37.:41:58.

version of One Direction's little I'm in love with you.

:41:58.:42:08.
:42:08.:42:18.

There he is, let's talk, hello, Jordan! How you?Never mind about

:42:18.:42:23.

me, you are the man of the moment, what stage a year out in the

:42:23.:42:29.

competition? We are at the summer final stage. -- semi-final stage.

:42:29.:42:34.

It is not on tonight, what has been shown since Monday is the semi-

:42:34.:42:41.

finals. There has been so much great talent, it is fantastic.

:42:42.:42:47.

you excited? Today as the first time I got to go to the studio and

:42:47.:42:52.

see everything, it was mind-blowing. It was not as big as it seems on TV.

:42:52.:42:57.

Everything there is mind-blowing, fantastic. And of course, there is

:42:57.:43:05.

this story. That your dad has changed your course from music to

:43:05.:43:10.

business studies, because what, you tell me? It wasn't that he was

:43:10.:43:16.

doing anything wrong on me. It wasn't good for me to do music. It

:43:16.:43:21.

was just that he wanted me to have a career. He thought bigger than

:43:21.:43:26.

the -- he thought that doing the music writ, I wasn't going to get a

:43:26.:43:29.

career out of it. He thought if he put me in the business route it

:43:29.:43:33.

would be a back-up plan. If you don't make it in music, you have

:43:33.:43:39.

something to fall back on. It probably was not a bad thing to do.

:43:39.:43:45.

But I have proved him wrong! Have you got it in your heart that you

:43:45.:43:50.

could win this? I am trying, all I can do is try my best. I hope I get

:43:50.:43:55.

to the final. I will take it step by step. Hopefully I'll get to the

:43:55.:44:00.

finals. If I win, that will exceed expectations. I am excited to see

:44:00.:44:05.

how what is happening. How long have you been singing? When I

:44:05.:44:12.

started, I was singing in a bar in Spain, singing Stevie Wonder and I

:44:12.:44:16.

got the place up and going. That is my first memory of it. I started

:44:16.:44:21.

properly singing when I was 14, writing songs and stuff. I started

:44:21.:44:25.

when I was young. Isn't it amazing that when you follow your dream and

:44:25.:44:33.

to keep on pushing, it is amazing Ed Wright. How while I you? I am 19.

:44:33.:44:37.

You on British television on a big show. Whether you win it on not,

:44:37.:44:44.

you have a platform, you have momentum but -- behind you and you

:44:44.:44:48.

can go where you want. That is why I went on the show, it gives you a

:44:48.:44:52.

platform as you said. Hopefully I will get something out of it. The

:44:52.:44:55.

main thing is to get something a lot of it. Hopefully that will

:44:55.:45:00.

happen. We are proud of you, and we wish you all very the best. Thank

:45:00.:45:09.

you for having me. Give him a round of applause.

:45:09.:45:19.
:45:19.:45:38.

Before we move on, let us remind I have got the phone right here, if

:45:38.:45:46.

you are treating me, I can see it. Tax avoidance, it is legal, doing

:45:46.:45:50.

whatever you can to pay as little tax as possible. Jimmy Carter paid

:45:50.:45:55.

an effective rate of tax of 1%. -- Jimmy Carl. He was battered by the

:45:55.:46:01.

press. Apple were criticised for channelling revenue through

:46:01.:46:06.

offshore subsidiaries to avoid paying tax over four years. The

:46:06.:46:10.

Apple chief executive defended the practice, saying it was within the

:46:10.:46:14.

letter and the spirit of the law. If it is within the law, is there

:46:14.:46:19.

anything wrong with tax avoidance? Let's start with David Barnes.

:46:19.:46:25.

you are obeying the law, what is the problem? The problem is that

:46:25.:46:32.

the law, ought to be more precise the UK tax code, is an 11,500 page

:46:32.:46:38.

on the, the most complex tax code in the world. Within those pages

:46:38.:46:41.

there are lots of opportunities for accountants and other financial

:46:41.:46:45.

people to find reasons for companies to reduce their to

:46:45.:46:51.

Operation Pax. -- corporation tax. When you need a doctor, police

:46:51.:46:55.

officer, that money is coming from somewhere, there is a moral

:46:55.:47:00.

obligation to pay for it. We knew what a dog and a career, you need

:47:00.:47:04.

companies to deprive them. If you - - if you want a job and career, you

:47:04.:47:09.

need companies to provide them. So penalising companies of taking

:47:09.:47:15.

advantage of the legal tax code seems hypocritical of a part of the

:47:15.:47:18.

politicians who in the first instance but the tax code in place.

:47:18.:47:22.

It is one of those things were there is one law for the rich and

:47:22.:47:27.

one for the poor. The average person will not be able to avoid

:47:27.:47:32.

paying tax. It gets taken out of your wages. The poorer you are, the

:47:32.:47:36.

higher the marginal rate of tax, the match you paid for example, if

:47:36.:47:40.

you are getting tax credits, your wages are so low you get tax

:47:40.:47:44.

credits, just earning a couple of pounds more public can actually

:47:44.:47:53.

lose you �50 per week in tax. That idea that there is something OK...

:47:53.:47:57.

Companies are taxed on profit, individuals are parched -- taxed on

:47:57.:48:01.

their income. I would like to see tax on individuals reduced as well.

:48:01.:48:05.

Let's have parity all round. The government taking as much money as

:48:06.:48:14.

they can, pilfering it... This is a very important figure that people

:48:14.:48:19.

need to know. A recent report from Oxfam found that there is 12

:48:19.:48:25.

trillion, I do not know how many zeros that is, 12 trillion pounds

:48:25.:48:31.

just from individuals in tax havens across the world's with individuals

:48:31.:48:37.

hiding their tax. That is such an amount of money, and the tax on

:48:37.:48:41.

that per annum would be �100 billion per year from individuals.

:48:41.:48:49.

Think of what that would be in a welfare reform and austerity.

:48:49.:48:52.

think if anybody knew they could get away with not paying taxes,

:48:52.:48:58.

they would do it, but we cannot. You are saying the majority of

:48:58.:49:03.

people said they would get away with it? If there was a way around

:49:03.:49:09.

it. One of you get your wage bill every month, we look at the tax, it

:49:09.:49:14.

is horrible. Is there anybody in the world who wants to pay more tax

:49:14.:49:22.

for many to? Of course not. How many people are watching this

:49:22.:49:27.

programme and they have an eye so? That is reducing tax liabilities.

:49:27.:49:36.

have heard this argument before, and I set his bag government-backed

:49:36.:49:44.

scheme -- an ISA. That the government is encouraging be able

:49:44.:49:48.

to avoid tax. -- there is no way that the government is encouraging

:49:48.:49:54.

people to avoid tax. constructed the tax code, Stephen?

:49:54.:49:59.

The politicians. The politicians who posture and tell us how immoral

:49:59.:50:08.

these corporations are. They are hypocrites. I live in the Cameron,

:50:08.:50:13.

-- in the community, David Cameron says we are all in this together,

:50:13.:50:18.

no we're not. Big businesses can avoid taxes. Those taxes could help

:50:18.:50:24.

our health, education and help address her Mrs -- address

:50:24.:50:27.

homelessness so we can live a good laugh. That would mean that

:50:27.:50:31.

governments do not have to tax and welfare. We are going to have a

:50:31.:50:41.

more young people who are homeless. I live in the asylum committee --

:50:41.:50:45.

community and I am proud because they have given me a home and Abed

:50:45.:50:51.

unlike politicians. They are only there for their only money. Those

:50:51.:50:56.

people who were earning money and say, I will not break the law, I

:50:56.:51:00.

will not evade tax but I will have made as much as possible? They

:51:00.:51:07.

should pay their fair share. How do you define fair? 35, 40? He should

:51:07.:51:15.

pay a lot in taxes. Jimmy White, what is there? -- what is fair?

:51:15.:51:21.

idea that the government can work it out is farcical. The whole point

:51:21.:51:25.

about tax is it is a voluntary -- in a voluntary, you get put in

:51:25.:51:31.

prison if you do not pay. If the company paid more tax than it

:51:31.:51:35.

legally needed to, what it is doing is making a donation to the

:51:35.:51:40.

government. When people make donations, they very rarely make it

:51:40.:51:48.

to the government. If the managers of company were to pay more than

:51:48.:51:52.

the tax they are legally have to, they would be acting immorally.

:51:53.:51:56.

Because they are agents on behalf of the owners of the firm. The

:51:56.:52:04.

moral duty is to be the owners of the firm. This is typical class war

:52:04.:52:10.

language from the very wealthy. On one hand you have Tory politicians,

:52:10.:52:14.

and unfortunately politicians in Stormont, who tell us that you have

:52:14.:52:18.

to accept that the local daily will be closed, the care homes will be

:52:18.:52:23.

shut, the local school will be shut because there is not money to fund

:52:23.:52:28.

these services. Important services that people rely on. That is your

:52:28.:52:33.

problem. We do not all live on the big salaries of the bankers who got

:52:33.:52:39.

us in this mess. The reality is, there is plenty of money to pay for

:52:40.:52:47.

basic services. When you use the word will Faye, aren't you resort

:52:47.:52:51.

to the class warfare language itself? -- of the word wealthy?

:52:51.:52:55.

When these are just there is plenty to money -- when you suggest there

:52:56.:53:00.

is plenty of money to go around, how should the government have own

:53:00.:53:04.

right to companies' profits? They have an obligation to shareholders

:53:04.:53:08.

and profits to be profitable. If government pilfers from profits,

:53:08.:53:13.

that is bad frock everybody. Even socialists should understand that.

:53:13.:53:17.

The idea that workers are getting a lot of money from any companies

:53:17.:53:21.

these days, would actually workers have seen their wages across the UK

:53:21.:53:25.

and world been pushed down year on year for the last 10 years,

:53:25.:53:30.

included in real terms in the public sector. There has been a pay

:53:30.:53:37.

freeze in the public sector. There is a man here, let's have a look.

:53:37.:53:40.

For these particular tax avoidance is, they seem to have more in

:53:40.:53:50.

London rather than Dublin. Let me go up here. In view of the enormous

:53:50.:53:55.

pay set-up paid to be the BBC presenters from the public purse...

:53:55.:54:05.

Here we go! And you are all clapping at this! Is it appropriate

:54:05.:54:09.

that those presenters should them to themselves into private

:54:09.:54:14.

companies to avoid paying tax? question would go back to you, some

:54:14.:54:19.

people might say, what does the law say? What is within the law? Who

:54:19.:54:23.

defines what is legal? avoidance is legal, tax evasion is

:54:23.:54:31.

illegal. It is up to the government to close the loopholes. Until the

:54:31.:54:34.

government close the loopholes, is it fair game for anybody to tries

:54:34.:54:42.

to maximise their wealth? Morality cubs at which as well. -- comes

:54:42.:54:46.

into it as well. I think it is a question of conscious. So you have

:54:46.:54:51.

a better standard of morality the more tax to pay? No, as the key

:54:51.:54:59.

have to pay your adequate cover in terms of the deficits, a lot of

:54:59.:55:02.

people would want to do the right thing, and paid the tax that they

:55:03.:55:08.

should pay. This discussion is slightly silly. Going back to

:55:08.:55:14.

corporations, corporations cannot pay tax. They can write the cheque

:55:14.:55:18.

but the cost of taxation cannot fall of a corporation. The costs

:55:18.:55:23.

can only be bought by individuals. The cost of corporation tax falls

:55:23.:55:27.

on three group of people. Shareholders of the company, the

:55:27.:55:32.

employees of the company, the shareholders through lower

:55:32.:55:36.

dividends, the employers through low wages, and the customers to

:55:36.:55:40.

high prices. There is no such thing as a company. It is a legal fiction.

:55:40.:55:45.

If you are keen on corporate tax, what you're really keen on his

:55:45.:55:49.

taxing employees, consumers and shareholders. The problem with

:55:49.:55:52.

corporate tax is that it is very opaque. It is not clear whether

:55:52.:55:57.

burden falls. It is very avoidable. It is a very silly tax. It should

:55:57.:56:05.

be eliminated. Let me bring him Mary. I am 60 years of age, and I

:56:05.:56:10.

have been a healthcare professional all my life, worked all my life,

:56:10.:56:15.

even when I had children I work part-time. I put money into a

:56:15.:56:20.

pension scheme. I am still being taxed, and it makes me very Tech --

:56:21.:56:24.

cross that these multi-millionaire companies are not paying tax. And

:56:24.:56:30.

there is me, taxed all my life, 68 and still paying tax. Are you cross

:56:30.:56:34.

at the companies or the government for allowing it to happen? Whoever

:56:34.:56:39.

is responsible. I just don't think that at my age, I think I should be

:56:39.:56:46.

taxed on money but I saved towards my pension. Companies feel the same.

:56:46.:56:56.

There is a contribution -- it is the same government here who has

:56:56.:57:00.

reduced corporation tax to one telling of the companies. Where is

:57:00.:57:08.

the logic in that? But you know and I know that companies use a thing

:57:08.:57:12.

called transfer pricing or miss pricing, where they will say, maybe

:57:12.:57:17.

I'd better not name the company. They will say, to use our main, you

:57:17.:57:21.

have to pay so many millions to this company, likely to be in

:57:21.:57:25.

Dublin, actually, or in London. By putting the money through that way,

:57:25.:57:29.

by charging your own company discovered, you can do away with

:57:29.:57:35.

having to pay tax. You have said, we have made no profits. Starbucks

:57:35.:57:38.

are the obvious one. They are maximising the return for the

:57:38.:57:48.
:57:48.:57:51.

They are not lying. The point is, but they are declaring within the

:57:51.:57:57.

law. The law has been written by politicians who did not represent

:57:58.:58:01.

the interests of normal people. They represent the interests of big

:58:01.:58:09.

business. So who does represent the interests of deep normal people?

:58:09.:58:19.
:58:19.:58:19.

Why are they recollected? We lack people to rot as a normal people.

:58:19.:58:24.

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