Episode 2 The Nolan Show

Welcome along, we're live on BBC One. Here's what we've got for you

tonight. That they wouldn't dare they are

party leader. How dare you tell the rest of the

people of Ireland but is later should not be in their.

Sinn Fein is accused of bullying police to protect an untouchable

leader. But is itself pointing the finger at what it calls a "dark

side" or cabal in policing. Tonight, we discuss the fallout from the

arrest and release of Gerry Adams. TV presenter, wildlife expert and

funnyman Bill Oddie tells me about his amazing life story.

And "If loving them is wrong then I don't want to be right" - that's

what Ellen DeGeneres said about Crystal Swing. They'll be singing

live in this studio tonight. The events of the last week have

once again rocked the executive to its foundations. The arrest of Sinn

Fein president Gerry Adams in relation to the abduction and murder

of Jean McConville in 1972 has again thrown a spotlight on policing here.

Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness has claimed there is a

"dark side" and a "cabal" within the PSNI, while First Minister Peter

Robinson has accused the Sinn Fein leadership of "a despicable,

thuggish attempt to blackmail the PSNI." Last Saturday, as Mr Adams

was still in police custody, prominent republican Bobby Storey

resorted to an old Gerry Adams quote on the existence of the IRA.

We ain't going away, you know! And it's good to see so many of you

here. The show is also the anger and annoyance that they would dare touch

are party leader. Today - on what would have been his

mother's 80th birthday - Michael McConville gave me his reaction to

what Bobby Storey said. How dare he tell the rest of the people of

Ireland that his leader should not be in their. How dare he do that?

Its law and order. We have to run by law and order. The brutality that

the IRA and these organisations did, take them out into the street

and bang them with a six-pack, two in the hands, to the knees to in the

feet. Is that justice? I also heard Bobby Storey shouting we haven't

gone away, you know. The message I took out of that underwriting the

McConville family that they have not gone away. They are also saying to

the British and Irish government they haven't gone away.

What message do you think they were sending you?

More or less shut your mouth. Will you?

No. Have pushed us into a corner. In the corner where we are at the

moment, I will come out fighting. I will defend with every breath I have

in my body. Conor Murphy, what do you think

Bobby Storey meant, how do you touch are leader? Who does he think is

untouchable? I think he was expressing and anger

but was felt right across the support base that we have, but

broader than that, what we have here is not the fact that everyone is

equal before the law, but quite clearly the fact that some people

are not equal before the law. I think the arrest of Gerry Adams,

given his profile, heightened that very significantly. I think it

brought it home in a very start reality to many people that we have,

particularly given the juxtaposition of the British Secretary of State's

statement which was aware of the impending arrest that it was not in

the public interest to pursue certain matters, but it is in the

public interest to pursue Gerry Adams.

You support his comment, how do you touch a related?

I think he was reflecting and anger that there was among people. He is

quite an emotive guy, he was in front of an audience and he was

reflecting anger that was very widespread among the audience, and

widespread among people that we canvassed. Even tonight when I was

knocking on doors, and widespread anger that what we have here is a

two tier system, a twin track approach to dealing with the legacy

issues of the past whereby on the one hand we have issues that are not

in the public interest to pursue, we have interest where evidence is

maybe there to be followed but is not followed by the police, and on

the other hand everyone should be equal before the law.

Who has not gone away? That phrase has been used and reused

in comedy sketches 1000 times since Gerry Adams said it in a thousand

different contexts. It wasn't really a comedy time when

Bobby Storey said that. You will see the interview later in

this programme. There was an interview we were about to broadcast

on the show in a few moments time. Michael McConville interpreted it as

a threat to him. That's fair enough, he can

interpreted to. That phrase has almost become a catchphrase. Bobby

Storey is the chairperson of Sinn Fein in the North. He was speaking

on a platform in that role. He was speaking in the context of people

felt there was an intervention in the process around the time of Gerry

Adams's arrest, and quite before anybody listening, that was the

reference he was making. I think we've got to look back on

the context. It is only a couple of years ago since Martin McGuinness

went on a foray to the Republic to try to pursue presidential

ambitions. What he found them was the media in the Republic, unlike

the media in Northern Ireland did not let him away with it. They

pursued him relentlessly about his past. Of course we know what

happened there. I will point out that Mr Adams was

brought into a police station and subsequently released and he is an

innocent man as we sit here tonight. Released without charge.

As things stand, that's right. Martin McGuinness did that. What

happened in the past couple of months is that Sinn Fein appear to

have taken a calculator gamble by saying, as Gerry Adams did, let's

get this out of the way. Let's get out there and say, I am prepared to

be interviewed about the Jean McConville killing Thomas hoping it

would be one hour in and one or out, and when did not happen the police

said we do have something to talk to you about in question you about

Thomas and as the days went on we saw Sinn Fein not doing what they

recommend to everyone else. Whenever Conor Murphy has people who come to

them who have been arrested wrongly feel we have been badly treated by

the police, they say, go to the policing on Woodman, go to the

policing board, go to the Justice committee. And that is not good

enough for Gerry Adams. When he gets arrested you through the rattle out

of the pram and save the whole thing is coming down unless he gets out.

That is the nub of what Sinn Fein did when Gerry Adams was arrested

because Martin McGuinness. We were accused of forming Downing

Street. We are entitled to hold police to account, as the DUP do

when they criticise the police, we are entitled and we see things

happening, I would not have the situation of everyone being equal

before the law, we are entitled to challenge that. That is not just a

feeling for a policeman stop someone at a checkpoint. It's not just that

situation where there is a Barney. This is a very serious issue about a

legacy issue. We quite clearly have a different approach. This is borne

out by the criticism of the senior coroner the other day when he

threatened to take the Chief Constable to court. This is borne

out by the judge who said that the British have frustrated enquiries.

We are dealing with a twin track approach.

Even Gerry Adams should be exempt from questioning about a murder?

Gerry Adams himself has said, and I support him in this, that the police

are entitled to arrest them if they wish, but what I'm saying to you is

the principle of everyone being equal before the law, that principle

does not apply here and that is a difficulty that we have to deal

with. That is difficult to you and your party walked away with at the

end of the last process and we need to deal with that.

Sinn Fein seem to think that their leader is different and above

everyone else. Our leader has clearly said what he

feels about that. There is no difference between the

leader and the party. If the police wanted to arrest him they were

entitled to arrest. It is not conducive to victims or

justice. When is the SDLP stand on this?

We stand with the victims, the family of Jean McConville. We have

to remember the family, that is what this is about. We should focus on

justice for the McConnell family rather than trying to make a victim

out of Gerry Adams. It is unfortunate that Sinn Fein has

aligned itself with the Secretary of State.

Gerry Adams is as entitled not just on a presumption of innocence but is

entitled to human rights as much as anybody else.

Absolutely, and I think Gerry Adams offered to make himself available to

the police, the police to come up on that offer. What did you make of the

story comments. From the age of 11 years when he was

kidnapped and tortured, I ran the time of his mother 's abduction and

warned not to tell, and in recent days he said he is not given the

names because of that fear, I think the threats from Bobby Storey were

threats that frightened many people. I have been canvassing all

day and the issue on the doorsteps is not Gerry Adams, it is about the

health service, jobs for young people, roads and housing

conditions. It is not Gerry Adams. It is very much with the McConville

family. Mike Nesbitt, do you think Gerry Adams had been charged Sinn

Fein would have withdrawn their support for leasing?

-- withdrawn their support for police?

I cannot say. But the specifics, we had a sequence, and the sequence was

started by Gerry Adams. The first thing, Gerry Adams said he would

voluntarily speak to the police. The police, having considered it said we

will take you up on that offer. 13, Sinn Fein went nuts and crossed the

line. Martin McGuinness crossed the line and said they might have to

reconsider their support for the police. That is very different from

criticising the police, anybody is able to criticise the police and we

have structures, we have the Omudsman and the policing board. But

there are basic principles. Nobody is above the law, and the police are

operationally independent and can be challenged at the policing board.

You said Martin McGuinness said he would review the situation. What

situation was he reviewing it wasn't Sinn Fein's support for policing?

That is not what he said at all that is your interpretation. He talked

about our struggle with lis policing with shoring up as we see

progressive forces within policing. The phrases from the "dark side" of

policing came from the - Who said it? We had private conversations

with police, as you do, all the time. We know what we are facing in

relation to policing. He said we would review how we approach that.

That is not to say that we were walking away from policing at all.

It was to say we would redouble our toefrts make sure we get a proper

accountable policing service. If they are working against the will of

the people freely expressed in the referendum of 1998. That will make

it is an incredibly serious matter. It's out of order for a man like

Martin McGuinness, the Deputy First Minister, not to bring it to the

party leaders. Not to take it to the Policing Board and make an issue of

it. He is making a statement on the post-Hass. I will go to other

meetings. I hear the crunch of reverse gears since Martin

McGuinness made that statement. You are trying to cover your tracks. If

there is a cabal, let's deal with it. I don't believe there is, you

haven't produced evidence. The guy here. Martin McGuinness stated

clearly that he would review the position of Sinn Fein had Gerry

Adams been charged. Now, are we living - He didn't use those words.

He said he would review the position on policing. Review the situation.

Where policing was concerned. He used the words "interpret it as you

like." Are we living if a society now in Northern Ireland where those

in a perceived privileged position are against being either charged by

the police, questioned by the police or prosecuted? What sort of society

are we living in when there is one rule for one, and a rule for others?

Previously there has been hundreds, maybe thousands, of young lads who

can't get jobs in this society because they have got a criminal

record. Because of the flag situation. Does that mean that

people like Gerry Adams cannot be charged or questioned by the police?

He is entitled to be questioned by the police. Stephen Farry, how did

you interpret it? There has been rhetoric from both Sinn Fein and the

DUP and others over the past number of months. We simply can't go on

like this. The peace process is strong, but it's not that strong

that the constant crisis won't eventually bring it down. We need a

renewed sense of political purpose across the parties. There was a

threat, whether it was followed through remains a hypothetical

situation. We have, I think, one of the most professional and

accountable police services in the world. The operational independence

is a cornerstone of the devolution of policing of justice. Let me

stress to Mike, if we didn't have the devolution of policing of

justice, which is working, power would be in the hands of the British

government we know what they did over the issues of OTRs we are et

abouter with policing and justice devolved. I remind ed you of this on

the radio show, you don't support the police all the time. In terms of

Sinn Fein accusing the police of engaging inle political policing.

Your colleague, Ruth Paterson, who accused the police of political

policing about a year ago? Is Yes. The police, as I said to you on the

policing about a year ago? Is Yes. radio programme, happy to say again

tonight, the police make mistakes. We make mistakes. Everybody makes

mistakes. The BBC makes mistakes. The issue here is, I raised it with

Conor Murphy. When mistakes are made, perceived or real by the

police, whether they exceed their authority or arrest someone or

question them for a period of hours, days or weeks, whatever it is, there

is a process that all of us agree has to be undertaken. So if I'm

taken in, my party knows what to do. They go to the Chief Constable, they

go to the Policing Board, go to the policing ombudsman. There is a

series of avenues to go down to get satisfaction. Sinn Fein signed up to

those avenues, signed up to the Policing Board and the Omar budsman.

When it comes to Gerry Adams being arrested it doesn't matter about the

Policing Board orlet ombudsman, sod that - we will throw the whole thing

out of the pram. When it suited the DUP last year, all of a sudden the

Police Service were involved in political policing? No. All of a

sudden. That is not a mistake. That is one of your people accusing and

smearing the PSNI when it suited the DUP When anything happened in

relation to the flag process due process was followed. If we had a

complaint we tabled it at the local police station. Went to the Chief

Constable. Raised it at the Policing Board or the ombudsman. Those are

the proper procedures to adopt if you have a complaint - that is what

Sinn Fein could have done with Gerry Sinn Fein could have done withGerry

Gerry Adams. Back over the years with you lot. I looked at it. 1974,

after being evicted from Stormont, Paisley said, "from this moment on

loyalists would have no time what so ever from the RUC" that was

interesting? How long ago was that. You can count? 40 years ago. 86. A

public order thing. 86 Paisley told police officers, "don't come crying

to me if your homes are attacked, you will reap what you sow." I don't

know the relevance of it. You don't? Is All of us around this table

signed up to the ombudsman, the Policing Board, the Assembly as

means where by we can get redress. If I have someone that gets charged,

if I have someone who has a complaint against the police, we all

know what we have to do. Sinn Fein know what is they have to do. If a

young nationalist walks in from the Falls Road saying, I have been

questioned by the police. Sinn Fein escorts them down to the ombudsman,

not good enough for Gerry Adams. Gerry Adams has always denied

involvement in the murder of Jean McConville. The 36-year-old widowed

mother of ten was kidnapped and murdered by the IRA in 1972. Today,

her family gathered to mark what would have been her 80th birthday.

I have been speaking to her son, Michael, whose last memory is of his

mother being dragged from their West Belfast home. I was holding her. I

was crying. My older brother was crying and my older sisters were

crying. We were holding onto her. We didn't want to let her go. We tried

our best not to let her go. The last image I have of my mother is my

mother leaving the flat with two people, holding her arms, pulling

her out the door. Her crying and screaming. The tears were running

down her face. I remember her turning round when she went out the

door and just looking back. Oh... These images never leave you. It's

terrible to have these images as the last images that we have of our

mother. It's just devastating. Waiting for our mother to come home.

Days have went past. No sign of our mother. No sign of anyone to come

and explain to us. I was going down to see my grandmother. My

grandmother was partially blind. I was going to see her. I was walking

down and the IRA controlled the Divis Flats so there were no lights

on the Divis Flats. The place was black. It was always that way, so it

was. You are walking down with just whatever light was from the sky. The

the next thing I seen shadows and people grabbed hold of me. Now, they

put a hood over my head. How old were you? 11 years of age. These

people grabbed the hold of me, stuck the hood over my head and, when they

pulled the hood down over my head there was the sleeve of a woolly

jumper. I could see through it. I could see where I was going and the

people who had me. You saw their faces? Yeah. You know them? I know

them. They lived in your area are? They lived in my area. I told Gerry

Adams their names. They took me to a house, a short distance from the

Divis Flats area. Now, they tied me to a chair. As an 11-year-old child?

Yeah. That is a brave. Soldiers tying an 11-year-old child o to a

chair. They had me tied to a chair and a gun stuck to my face. They

told me that they were going to shoot me. She stuck a pen knife in

my leg. I could feel the blood running down my leg and running into

my sock. I kept saying, "I'm bleeding" they didn't care. They

kept hitting me. They turned around and said, "we're going to let you

go." They untied me and kept the hood on my head. Brought me back to

the stairwell at Divis Flats and they let me go. They turned around

and told me, "if you say anything about any member of the IRA, we will

shoot you or else one of your members of your family." There was

one person at all-time doing the talking. Do you know him? I do know

him. Is he still alive? He is still alive, yeah. Yes. Would the public

recognise his name? He would be well-known in the republican

circles, so he would. Michael, I want to go back to after your mum's

disappearance and just show you some of this footage of you and your

brothers and sisters being interviewed about your mum's

disappearance. Just have a look at this. Do you know why your mummy was

taken away? No. She has never done anything. She never done anything?

No. I was in the house. She just went to bingo. When do you think you

will see your mummy again? I don't know. We keep our fingers crossed

and pray hard for her to come back. I would have to say, at this minute,

just watching that there, that people came to our house that night

knew that my father had died on 3rd January that year. They also knew

that my father had no brothers or sisters. He was the only child of

the family. They also knew when they took our mother away that we would

be left orphans. So all what you hear in the media about the members

of Sinn Fein saying about McConville family, it was terrible the way they

were left as kids. No-one came to our door. Over the Christmas period

or anything else. My mother was devastated what happened to my

father, but there wasn't one toy in the house at that time for us. And,

that would have been the first Christmas that I could ever remember

as a child, never having a toy. You like young children to grow up with

the thing about Santa clause and everything else -- Santa Claus and

everything else. The two younger brothers, six years of age, this was

all took away from them. My younger sister of seven, took away frommer

had. The younger brother at eight, took away from them. At least I had

some of the things that they never ever. We thought for a long time my

mother was coming back. When the IRA came back to our house that time

there was one of them, he had my mother's purse and her wedding

rings. I knew, I was only 11 years of age, when they brought these back

that it was telling us that your mother was dead. When the welfare

came and took us away and promised they would keep us together, the

welfare took the last thing what we had of each other away. They

separated us into different homes, all around the place. We grew up not

knowing each other. So why not name these people who took your mum away?

The reason why I'm not naming them, I have a son of 29 years of age. He

has children of his own. I have a daughter at 25 years of age. Who is

at university. I also have a daughter at 20 years of age. I have

a child at eight-year-old. You really think that if you name these

people you really think, either you or one of your family will be

attacked and or killed? Gerry Adams told me at one of the meetings, that

I told them I would release the names to the media. He turned ruined

said to me, "Michael, republican people are behind you. But you have

to watch. I hope you and your family is ready for the backlash." He says

he has no recollection of that. He denied saying that to you? He has

denied saying it. Are you telling me the truth? I'm telling you the

truth. If there is a test to take with a lie detector test, I'll take

it. Will Gerry Adams get on the same lie detector test and take it as

well? I would be quite willing to do that. I would be quite willing to do

that in any studio. He is the public face of Gerry Adams

at the press conference. We can not bring Mrs McConville back

but we can help the family in any way that is possible. I regret very

much what happened. We are in a better place. Michael McConnell

knows that. He has children and he wants them to grow up in a better

place. All of us together can do that. Martin McGuinness has spoken

about this at length, some of the victims of the conflict have been

the strongest supporters of the peace process.

He says in the statement that he is wanting to help the family. Gerry

Adams, if you want to help the McConville family, why is he not

giving the names to the police? You think Gerry Adams ordered the

death of your mother? I don't know what role Gerry Adams

had to play in it, but according to tapes I have listened to, according

to interviews, Gerry Adams was the CEO. He would give the order.

Gerry Adams would say that those people are critics of his, opponents

of his, and have a vested interest in trying to smear him. You would

say it is completely untrue. Michael, you have no concrete

evidence against Gerry Adams. Maybe, just maybe, you are smearing him

unfairly. I have not smeared Gerry Adams at

all. I'm only using other people's words. I have seen Gerry Adams at

rallies, I have seen Gerry Adams at IRA funerals. I know personally

speaking if you are beside the Coughlan of an IRA man wearing their

clothing, you have to be part of the organisation.

It was a very astute, confident, some discredit as statesman-like

delivery by Gerry Adams at a press conference.

Yes. I found some of his words that he was using patronising. Towards

the McConville family. We now but the language that Gerry Adams was

using was not to be used. What you mean?

He was trying to soft soap was. If the try to tell to the public

that my mother was an informant. If you could have either truth or

justice? I would go for truth. Tell the truth

about it. Once those people go on and say they murdered Jean

McConville, they are named and shamed, that is all the McConville

family once. Whatever going to get? Two years. You would like her death

investigated as a war crime? In the 1970s and 80s they were

searching for Nazis all around the world that committed war crimes.

Today I am pushing it for a war crime because they took my mother

away from us. They had her for six or seven days. The dog hole, they

had her hands tied behind her back and they shot her in the back of the

head. Secretly buried her, got her body back years later. If that is

not a war crime, what is? What is the difference between my mother's

case and cases all over Europe that took place with the Germans?

Are you likening the IRA to the Nazis? It looks that way.

How do you feel, Conor Murphy, watching that man?

I feel extremely sorry for him. I'm not sure there are any words I can

say that have an impact on the McConville family. The Republicans

have said that what was inflicted on them was a grievous injustice by

Republicans. Do you think the killers should be

named and shamed? I understand that Michael McConnell

has said that he has some fear, and his sister he said that she has

passed the names onto the police. We have said that the family should be

free to pursue any form of justice but they want to pursue. We should

be free from any fear in doing that and that should be the case.

Do you think the killers should be named and shamed?

If the family want to pursue justice they should be free to do so.

Do I think people should be named and shamed? I know this is the sort

of show you do. I'm not talking about just naming

and shaming, I'm talking about a truth process in the context of what

Michael has set. He wants the killers of his mother to be in the

public domain. Would you support that?

The only party that brought forth for positions for a truth process

was Sinn Fein. That is absolutely not true.

That is now supported as part of the process by the other parties and I'm

glad of that. The exploits officers Association is lobbying MPs to stop

enquiries happening. We do not want a truth process. Sinn Fein has

advocated a truth process. I'm in favour of victims getting access to

truth, I'm in favour of a victim centred process of dealing with the

legacy from the past. Are you in favour of an amnesty to

get to the truth? Would Sinn Fein favour an amnesty?

We understand that certain victims would not accept that. We did

agree, the propositions that we agreed to, there was a process for

truth and another process for people who wanted to pursue issues of

justice. That was in the Haass talks.

When Gerry Adams was arrested and was a different entitlement to truth

and justice, was in their? What we said clearly, and I need to

finish this, as we saw at, there were people in the police that are

operating on a two tiered level where they are not pursuing...

We dealt with this at the start of the programme.

There is iterative approach. If the state says it is not in the interest

to pursue certain matters and not others?

I think we already know there is a team of detectives working in

relation to the murders on bloody Sunday. It is only two weeks ago

that the Secretary of State denied to the victims of Barry Murphy

entitling them to truth and justice. Sinn Fein through Gerry

Adams and Martin McGuinness are saying that victims such as the

McConville family are entitled to that truth and justice because of

who it might lead to. What has troubled Sinn Fein more is that we

have been reminded of the dark side of many of the leading members of

Sinn Fein last few days and that is what has troubled them a lot more.

There is a dark side on all sides, isn't their?

But not in all political parties, Stephen.

In the second row, your dad was killed in the massacre. If we were

looking at a situation where you could either get truth or Justice,

which would it be? Why not both? Everybody is entitled

to it. Up until this day there's never been any investigation into

the murders. Because it might require an

amnesty. Why would it require an amnesty?

Wide when the truth is their? Nobody is above the law. That is where it

stands. There is evidence that paratroopers murdered 11 people, why

not pursue it? Why not all politicians, why not pursue it? If

there is evidence a case can be put forward. Why are the shying away

from what has happened in the past? Statistics show that there is over

1200 people murdered by state forces. There is a myth that the

state is involved in only 10%. When you have Loyalist paramilitaries run

by British state and intelligence goes to 40%. Through that 10% out.

It is a myth. Pro state forces were body of 40%.

John, your dad was killed by the IRA. If it was truth or justice,

which would be? To be honest with you, I would take

off. But you take what you get. When all is said and done, truth? Whose

truth is it? There are records kept with the state. The provisional IRA

kept no records. The day after my father was shot, a bomb went off.

Young girl of 11 years of age was killed. 11. She hadn't even reached

puberty. She was killed. No one was God for that, or my father.

This is the point, isn't it? All these years later, if it came down

to people telling the truth, you would understand and get the

information about who killed your dad, but in order to do that you had

to ruling quashed justice. Gerry Adams would even come out with

the truth that he was in the provisional IRA.

He denies he was in the IRA. My father was in uniform for 42 years

of his life and he was proud of the fact.

Gerry Adams walked beside a cotton in IRA uniform -- what beside a

cotton. -- walked beside a cotton. Patricia Macbride, former Victims'

Commissioner. A lack of political will in this country was criticised

to bring a solution to the past. You are one of the politicians, if there

was lack of political will, you are included.

It is a pity that Shaun Woodward when he had they opportunity to

implement the conclusions of the report did not do anything about it

as now calling for a referendum. I was heartened to hear a statement

this week that the Irish and British governments need to re-engage with

parties here in finding a solution in dealing with the past. That will

be the key to that. The governments cannot abdicate their

responsibility. Lets not forget that they are also actors in this

conflict. They need to step in and make a deal with parties year, with

civic society, about how we will address the legacy of the conflict.

Stephen made a point about their being no evidence of a two tier

system. There actually is evidence of that. If you look at the HM IC

report about how the Royal military police investigations were done,

these are members of the security forces who were given special

privileges before they were interviewed about conflict related

deaths. Those privileges are not extended to members of the civilian

population. What we'd stick away from this tonight, looking at the

interview, is the heart and pain in that family. It is the heart and

pain in other families last week who wrote told that investigations into

the deaths of their loved ones were not in the public interest. That is

the responsibility of this panel and this audience to address that hard

and pain. Mike Nesbitt, will you politicians

ever sort this out? I do not know, that is the honest

answer. We have gone for the highest tariffs of all the needs of

victims, which is truth, justice and acknowledgement. If you look at the

work that has been done in the commission since Patricia and I were

there, we have produced a list of seven needs, defined areas,

including several hundred people who carry very serious physical injury.

We could do something for them around this table. They would like a

pension is the compensation was based on the fact they would not be

alive today. We can do something about the very serious level of

mental health and well-being, not just amongst individuals and

families or communities. You are holding back Hass. Yes you

are. You said no to it. We said no to it. At the last-minute you turned

away. We are not signing up to Haass. That is clear. I sat through

Haass. As you did, Dolores, and the party leaders - excuse me. The party

leaders there after. Sitting at the right hand of Martin McGuinness was

Sean Murray, a man who, we now hear from a BBC documentary, as the IRA

were talking about decommissioning, was ordering up new arms. You are

telling me, Stephen Farry, we are better off with the devolution of

policing and justice. Absolutely. . I thought you supported - It's not

us holding it back. We want to see it happen. First of all, the real

crux of what we have to address, in terms of dealing with the past, is

truth and justice. That is at the heart of the discussion this evening

and from members of the audience. That is where the need lie as the

this stage. If any good comes from the events over the last week there

should be a renewed impetuous across the political parties, also

involving the two governments around all of this. One of the criticism or

scepticism around the Haass proposals is whether paramilitaries

will come forward and provide the truth. Hopefully the lessons of the

last week there is an incentive of people opting into a process of

truth telling. If right structures can be put in place and a system of

limited immunity. If the victims opt-in, rather than immunity we can

make progress. We are out of time on this subject tonight. If you do want

to continue to talk about, it we can do so on Twitter. My phone is on the

desk here. Give my guest as round of applause. Let us remind you about

how you can get in touch with the show. The number will come up on

your screen. There it is. 08459 555 678. The calls cost up to 5p per

minute from most land lines.le additional connection fee may apply.

Calls from mobiles may be considerably more. If you are

texting us it's 81771 the hashtag, #BBCNolan. The texts will be charged

at your standard message rate. Still to come on the programme. Crystal

Swing will be singing live in this studio tonight.

Right. Now my next guest has been a feature of our television screens

since the 1970s. First with the comedy show The Goodies and in more

recent years as the face and voice of the BBC's Springwatch programme.

Behind his popular TV persona he was battling his own personal demons.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, Bill Oddie. M mitt

APPLAUSE Good to see you. Are you well? I'm

very well. I'm fine. I know that is not we are here to talk about in a

sense. We are here to talk about when I'm not well. I'm fine. I have

been for some years. The as is been fairly widely broadcast, at least in

the papers in that, I had suffered from very bad depression for about

12 years. And, then finally that kind of crystallised itself. Crystal

- the name of the band, coming on soon! Crystallised itself into a

rediagnosis as being by polar as was manic depressive. In a funny way is

a better expression. It's easier to explain what it is. Not that any of

this is easy to explain, but, you know. Manic depression. Depression

really to recognise when you are really, really down. The manic side

of it, it can be very extreme. You can really do yourself a damage by

spending your money on some ridiculous campaign or whatever or,

you know, feeling you can fly. Things as extreme as that. On the

other hand, it can be quite subtle when it's actually quite helpful to

a point. When you are manic you tend, you know, you may think, no,

there is nothing wrong with me. When you are depressed you know there. Is

I cannot exaggerate. I was trying to think what is the most helpful thing

I could say about this. I can't exaggerate just how bad that is. I

think anybody who has suffered from clinical depression it's not just a

matter of - I don't feel very good today. It's a matter of - I cannot

move today. I mean, literally, cannot move. It can mean weeks where

you can't get out of bed. Your mind is full of blank and black thoughts.

Where there seems to be no hope at all. Where the danger rouse time is

you reach for the sleeping pills and take too many of those. You did

that? Twice. One year about three or four years ago. Although, to be

perfectly honest, it didn't make any difference to the effect, if you are

unlucky in a sense. It's a matter of wanting to go to sleep. During the

day, I'm lying there thinking - I don't know what any of this is

about. I can't feel anything. Just take a sleeping pill. Sod it, I'll

take some more. Obviously, you will understand why I'm saying this, I

would urge you at home not to do that if you are feeling in anyway

suicidal, please, please pick up the phone to the likes of the Samaritans

to the Lifeline people, we will give out a number. I'm sure the gallery

will feed it to me before the end of the programme. We will give out a

helpline number if you need some help at home. Part, Bill, when I was

reading about you, I was reading about what an extraordinary life you

had, right at the very beginning, what hit me You had a mum who you

hardly knew I can't recognise that picture that has just gone up. It

wouldn't have been me who took it. That is you with your mum? Yes. So I

believe. How did you not get to know her? Because, well, basically, my

mum was diagnosed as having something wrong. It was, in those

days, we are talking about, I was born in 1941, 42/43 when I was one

or two she was considered to be dangerous to be at home. Not capable

of looking after me or any other baby. You have these had memories of

her lashing out, don't you? I do. In a way, I think myself lucky that

I've only got two or three memories. They aren't very nice really. They

are like flashbacks in a movie. I have a picture of her being dragged

off into, what I realise was an ambulance or a police car and

something like that, taken back to what, in those days, would have been

called, you know, I don't know, loony bin, mental home. Something

ridiculous. She was there for a very long time. I didn't know her at all.

You had no - I'm thinking of my mum now, you had no childhood memories

of getting a hug from your mum. Hush ush aring home in school. There for

you. Telling you she loves you every day? Is that what they do? God! No.

No. Absolutely. You're right. All I can say is that, I think, probably

youngsters in particular have a way of not missing things. If you

haven't had it, you don't miss. It as far as I was concerned, it was

perfectly normal that I was being brought up by my dad and his mother,

my granny, who frankly I haven't got very nice memories of. She was a

tough little piece of work. When I look back at those days. It was only

later on. I don't remember going round to someone us a house saying -

what is that nice cuddly lady over there. That is my mum. I haven't got

one of those! One of the saddest things someone sitting in that

interview chair said, it has been tonight a few seconds ago, "is that

what mums do? Do mums love you?" Do you think that has mess you up? Had

an affect on you now that you looked back, that you had a mum and weren't

loved by her? Well, the psychiatrist or therapist who I got sort of sent

to for about five or ten years, some years ago, within the last ten

years, five years back, of course loved that. There is nothing than a

therapist likes better than to hear you have had a lousy childhood and

your mother mistreated you or gone away. They love that one. Ha is

great. Oh, that is it then. Now we know what it is. You know, now I

will spend five years curing you of that. Possibly not. We will just

talk. It will cost you ?60 an hour! I wish I weren't entirely joking,

I'm not, I'm afraid. When I look back on that period, are you going

into therapy, I have thought several times - my God I was manipulated

there. I don't know. All I do know is, maybe this is a good affect,

that throughout my life I actually enjoyed a company of women, not

Lesley Morley women, but women in general and, you know, I have been

fortunate enough to be married to a couple of remarkable women and so on

and so forth. A what makes you happy then? Let's not talk about -

Chatting to interesting people, actually. It does. That is quite

true. This is actually quite recent for me. I can did have a reputation

through life of being grumpy and bad tempered and various other things.

Looking back I think that was a mild form of the mania, which I wasn't

recognising until relatively recently. What I've enjoyed most

over the last couple of years, when I have been doing far less

television, I have been involved more in conservation work all over

the world and the people I meet doing that kind of work are great.

And the people I've met doing mental health work. Do you like coming to

Northern Ireland? Of course I do. I love coming here. I have been here

several times. I'm usually in search of wildlife. I will tell you

something, I always see something new. Every time I come here. It

happened today. It happened today. Saw something new today here!

Something I've never seen. I am just about to enter the lair of a species

closely related to man and yet is instinctually different. It is of

course the presenter. One particularly rare and particularly

chummy specium is indigenous to Northern Ireland. It's the lesser

spot ed, Nolan. The Nolan has a reputation for being temp are mental

and grumpy. Right, John, listen. Don't ever phone this programme

again. The rest of the pack keep their distance. Every now and again

will is someone with a distinctive cry are. Come in here. The weaker

pack member slowly makes his advance careful not to make any sudden moves

which could upset the Nolan. Arrrgh! The Nolan is determined to assert

his authority over the herd and cement his position as leader of the

pack. He does this through open acts of aggression towards anyone or

anything who strays too close to his territory. The Nolan's hunting

instincts have been dogged by captivity he snacks on snack bars.

The consequences are indigests. Precisely - The Nolan actually likes

the gloom of his normal habitat. Every year in late spring he my

grates to warmer climes, much to the relief of the rest of the flock.

Guess how many weeks to my holiday - five! Let's hug it out, guys.

APPLAUSE You clap that, won't you? I've never

seen that before. I hope never to see it again. Can I give one message

to anybody who does have problems of any kind, you know, let's face it,

there are all sorts of different mental health problems. Don't be

embarrassed about it in anyway what so ever. One in four people have

problems. Start talking to other people. You can bet your boots, I

bet if you went round this audience right now and say, I have, I have.

Let me give out the Samaritans number, it's up on your screen now.

What an interesting man you are. I wish we could do a whole show on

you. Maybe we will get a chance to talk to you again. I would love to.

I admire you sir, I admire your openness and honesty. Ladies and

gentlemen, Bill Oddie. APPLAUSE.

Thank you. That's almost all we have time for tonight. Just a quick

reminder, if you want to be in the audience here's what you have to do.

Go on online at bbc.co.uk/tickets and apply there. I will be back on

the Nolan radio show in the morning. 9.00am BBC Radio Ulster. Before we

do go tonight we have a special treat for you. My next guests are

packing out venues across Ireland with their unique interpretation of

some classic hits. The family group have made waves in the States.

Ladies and gentlemen, performing Happy Days, here they are, Crystal

Swing. # Sunday, Monday, happy day

# Tuesday, Wednesday, happy days # Thursday, Friday, happy days

# Saturday, what a day # Rocken all week with you

# This day is ours # These days are all

# Share them with me # Feels so right

# It can't be wrong # Rocking and rolling all week long

# These days are ours # Happy and free

# These days are ours # Share them with me

# These days are ours # Happy and free

# These days are ours # Share them with me being Saturday,

what a day # Grooving all week with you... #

Let's see the hands! # Hey... #

# Sunday, Monday, happy days # Tuesday, Wednesday, happy days

# Thursday, Friday, happy days # The weekend comes

# Ready to race to you # These days are ours

# Happy and free # Share them with me

# Goodbye grey coy sky hello blue # Nothing can hold me when I hold

you # Feels so right, it can't be wrong

# Rocking and rolling all week long # These days are ours

# Happy and free # These days are ours

# Share them with me this can these days are ours

# Happy and free # These days are ours share them

with me # These happy days are yours and

mine # These happy days are yours and

mine # These happy days are yours and

mine # Are your and

and you can follow the peloton, live with BBC Sport NI.