Episode 3 The Nolan Show


Episode 3

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Welcome, we are liable be busy one. -- we are live on BBC One. Racist

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offences have gone up by a third, but who is to blame? Should a wife

:00:18.:00:23.

to apologise to her husband if he cheats on her? Scottish

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businesswoman Michelle Mone on her bra empire, and Of the Priests are

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singing live! Hello, racist graffiti, people

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beaten with golf clubs and in one case, faeces thrown around one

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victim. Just one of the shocking race attacks in Northern Ireland.

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Here is a reminder of some of the recent incidents that have made the

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news. Rocks flung Windows, racist slogans, cars set alight, all of

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that has led to the immigrant community in Belfast being worried

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for their safety. Last year, the number of racist

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attacks reported to the police rose to 982, an increase of 31%. In

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January, four cars were burned out on this road near a sectarian

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interface. All belonged to foreign national families. C Watts, that car

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is Polish, and that is Romanian. I live in take a -- Tiger Bay, they

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burn my house, they put the fire, I come from work and I see my house is

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burnt. I am not afraid of nobody. The issue of hate crime has been

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gaining momentum since 2012. Photographs emerged of Polish flags

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on bonfires. In April, the assistant Chief Constable met with the

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policing board to discuss the ongoing problem. We think that

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people are behind orchestrating these racist attacks, some of it is

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show floor housing base which worries us, because it has a deeply

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unpleasant taste of ethnic cleansing in Belfast. Last month, two Polish

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men and a woman were attacked by a gang armed with golf clubs. Just one

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of the series of attacks on that community.

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We want your views tonight. How to do so will come upon the screen.

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That find out what it is on the ground. Tell me what it is like,

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what people like sprinting in Northern Ireland. -- are

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experiencing. The Polish community is shaken by the incidents and the

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attacks that are targeting the community. We are scared of what is

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happening. At the start, many of the migrant workers were encouraged to

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come here by employers, to find jobs here. And they felt welcomed, by the

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community. And they felt part of the community. At the moment, they do

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not know what is happening and why it is happening. How bad is it? Is

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it getting worse? I think it is getting worse, we hear racist

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attacks every day. I have been here for ten years and I do not think I

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have felt that scared before. Never been more frightened than now? Yes.

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Who is it to blame? Is it just that we have got to hate people in this

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country, either hate each other or hate foreign people? I do not think

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that was fair. People would say that they find Northern Ireland people

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very friendly and welcoming. And many of the recent incidents were

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reported by local residents who saw things happening. We would be wrong

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to say that those who engage in this kind of hate crime art

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representative of the community but I think it is damaging if we do not

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treat it seriously. There are clearly tensions in the community,

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it is very clear that there is a political motivation in that case.

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Paramilitary is wanting to exploit local communities. It is about more

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than that, it is about trying to build relationships. People who come

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to Northern Ireland are here to contribute to the community and we

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should welcome that and try to work with people so we can build a

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stronger sense of community and identity that includes those people.

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And not putting local people first? It is not about that. It has to be

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about treating every individual with respect and dignity and treating

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them fairly and that is what it has got to be about. That is the only

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way we are going to address this by making sure that when it comes to

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things like debates about who gets jobs, it is got to be the person who

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is most talented. We have got to ensure that we educate young people

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in our communities that they are able to compete with those jobs on

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an equal footing. We cannot create a situation when we talk about local

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first, the cars where the draw the line? -- because where do you draw

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the line? People come here to make a contribution and that would stifle

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the economy. We do not say no to inward investment, why would we say

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no to inward immigration? Politicians rightly condemn racist

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attacks in our communities but what we do not see is leadership from our

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politicians. This turned into yet another Sinn Fein, DUP, tit-for-tat,

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where you are blaming each other and not focusing on the issue at hand.

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What is happening on the ground in combating this issue? Have a look at

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this between Martin McGuinness and Gregory Campbell. I have been on the

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public record for some considerable time over the course of the last

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number of weeks making it clear that I believe these attacks are

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orchestrated and they are being orchestrated by the EDF. -- the UDF.

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I call on the organisation to hold this. These attacks are absolutely

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unacceptable, deplorable. And I call on all political leaders to speak

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out loudly and stand together with victims of these hate crimes. Thank

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you, Mr Speaker. I suppose everyone will unite in condemning all

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attacks, whoever they are enacted upon and wherever it is carried out.

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With the Deputy first Minister not agree that his condemnation,

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unequivocal as it is, would carry more weight if he were to own up in

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an open and transparent manner the hate crimes that he engaged in when

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he was in the IRA? I know the member who has just asked that question is,

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unlike me, very indebted. I have a lot to be bitter about. -- he is,

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unlike me, very bitter. But I do not intend to live my life through

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bitterness. I want to contribute positively to everything that is

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happening in our society. I think it is about time that the leading

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spokespersons who say, on the Unionist benchers who say that

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attacks on isolated East Europeans, and for different reasons either

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sectarianism or racism, are the attacks on the party opposite, it is

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about time they stood up and told the public or the belief is

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responsible. I the only person who has the courage to do that. So who

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is the people who are response will, is it the UVF? The police have

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indicated that in some cases there is paramilitary involvement. Let me

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respond to the point that was raised about leadership. Several weeks

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ago, before these attacks escalated, I met with Eva Grossman from the

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Polish community. And together we decided that what we really needed

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now was to restore the unite against hate campaign, which was race

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success will previously in combating some of these hate crimes. You are

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squabbling with each other in the assembly and scoring points, that is

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the point of the young man is making. I am not there to do that

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tonight. You do it in the assembly. I am not in the assembly. You, being

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the DUP. Look at the squabbling. If you look at what we are doing, what

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you try to do is provoke a row and I'm not going to give in to that.

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Just one second and then you can. Just for the record, I did not

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control the assembly. And there was an opportunity for you to be united

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up there, and what happens? Potshots at each other. Yellow matter I am

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not keen to get into potshots tonight. I want to address this into

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the Polish community. I am appalled when I see the Polish flag on top of

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the nationalist bonfire and I will explain why. Join the Second World

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War, when Hitler was bombing East Belfast -- during the Second World

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War, it was Polish airmen who defended this city and gave their

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lives for our freedom. They stood with us against fascism, against

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ethnic cleansing in Europe. I think we need to remember that. Some

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people need to look at their history. When they attack the Polish

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community or any ethnic minority in Northern Ireland, maybe they need to

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understand a bit about this. The other thing they need to realise is

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that there are 25 million people of what I would call of the Scots

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extraction living in the United States of America, 25 million

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office. -- Ulster Scots extraction. Those people went to North America

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and made their home there, they are also in Canada, Australia, New

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Zealand. People who left here and integrated into other communities,

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were welcomed there, given jobs and opportunities. We have to recognise

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we cannot on the one hand here in Northern Ireland say that Northern

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Ireland is closed for people, and at the same time, our young people

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leave these shores and expect to be treated well wherever they go, and I

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think that is very important. OK, you can do the other thing in a

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second. Come on! It is an important point. I do think that politicians

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should unite on this issue and I think the unite against hate

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campaign is the vehicle around which we can unite, and not just the

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politicians, but the entire community, to send out a message

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that racism is wrong, deplorable and has to stop. So what is McGuinness

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on about? The Unionist community is not speaking up loudly against us,

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listen to that, crystal clear. The difficulty I have of what Geoffrey

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has said is, you saw the clip of the policeman at the meeting, he said

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something similar in the May meeting. He has also said that the

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UVF have been responsible for a 70% increase in hate crime. When the

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dissident republicans come out and carry out their attacks, Martin

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McGuinness stands up, he stands with the police, he stands at the

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community. The people who are carrying out these racist attacks in

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east Belfast are the same people who petrol bombed a female police

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officer outside Naomi's office in east Belfast. They are the same

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people who shot and seriously wounded General McGrath in east

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Belfast. The question we need to ask is why are the DUP not coming out

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clearly and condemning the UVF? They are, Pat. He has not come out and

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condemned it. That is not true. The perception is they will not condemn

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the UVF because they want to support in the forthcoming elections and

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they particularly want it for the next Westminster election because

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they want their own seat, Naomi. send out a clear message in this

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community. We need to send a message to people tonight who are living in

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fear. It's easily resolved. Let Peter Robinson stand shoulder to

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shoulder with Martin McGuinness and with the Chief Constable and condemn

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those the UVF who are responsible for this. Here is the issue. If

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Peter Robinson isn't going to come out clearly and condemn the UVF, how

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do you expect people in the community to come forward and give

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information to the police? Jeffrey has made it crystal clear that he

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has. I will not spend all night doing this. Do one thing. Give me an

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undertaking now that the DUP will provide us with how many times Peter

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Robinson, over the last 12 months, has condemned the UVF, will you do

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that? We will be happy to do that. Not only Peter. Specifically Peter

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is the charge in his role as First Minister. That will be done. Some

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figure between 0 and what do you guess? We will provide you the

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figures. The focus is on East Belfast, there have been twice as

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many racist attacks in South Belfast and more racist attacks in North

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Belfast than East Belfast, let us get leadership from Sinn Fein

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strongly condemning these racist attacks instead of getting involved

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in theys tit-for-tat nonsense. It should not be about finger-pointing.

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His leader was being attacked, to be fair. Not just now. We were looking

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at the wider issues about the fact it isn't only in East Belfast and in

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South Belfast and other locations. For example, where is the strategy

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that the Assembly is meant to bring forward and hasn't been brought

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forward and progressed. Those actions would allow us to engage

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with communities in a meaningful way, put targets on what we do and

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money behind those things. It ease easy to say things, harder to

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follow-through. We need to look at supporting those who are doing good

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work. I agrief against the Unite Against Hate campaign. We need to

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find vehicles for people working in local communities, language classes,

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whether it is support or doing other things to integrate local

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communities so people know each other better. What surprises me

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most, I guess, is that despite all of the violence and all of the

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attacks, when you go into communities and you meet people who

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are engaging with each other, they don't see each other as Lithuanian

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or Polish or Northern Irish they see each other neighbours. Until that is

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the point where people view each other we will continue to these

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problems. If we go back to the original person in the audience. Are

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you any more persuaded now? No. It's the usual tit for tat. Fight among

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themselves. The same with the Haass proposals. You came to no agreement.

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You come to no agreement over this. People on the ground actually have

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to take up the mantel and do something about it. All you do up in

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Stormont is argue and get no results. By the way. Apparently the

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DUP... APPLAUSE Yeah.

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You need to come into a programme like this better briefed. Apparently

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Peter Robinson condemned the UVF yesterday. That is news to me. Whose

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fault is that? The the attacks have been taking place for 18 months. You

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are sitting here tonight condemning the First Minister of the country

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not condemning the UVF, he did so as recently as yesterday. Are you for

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real? Eunicism has been negligent in their duty. You are ignoring

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yesterday. Martin McGuinness came straight out clearly condemned the

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shooting. Gave leadership. Gave leadership to the community. Told

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the people who were responsible that they were traitors. There was no ifs

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or buts. The leadership of unionism needs to do the same in this

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circumstance. They need to stand up and be clear about it. They are not

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doing that. When you see what Peter Robinson said yesterday will you

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apologise on behalf of Sinn Fein? Let me see what he said. We will

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find what he said. Let us see if we can find it. I don't know if we can.

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In the front row. I live in Manchester for many years, I know

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you have been over quite often yourself, Stephen, I have to say any

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area of Manchester you go into there is racist slurs written on walls,

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slogans, racist attacks daily. It's nothing new. It's happening in Great

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Britain, you but it doesn't make the news. Here we go, we have an

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election coming. The politicians will carve this up between them and

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blame each other and blame whatever. It was unfortunate that the

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Assistant Chief Constable blamed a specific area, or people. I think

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that - It's either the UVF behind it or it's not. Behind some of it, or

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it's not. It could well be behind some of it. It can't be behind all

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of it. What I'm trying to say. This type of racist attack, attacks, it's

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happening all over England, Scotland and Wales, it never makes the news.

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We have having an election... He said, she said. In fairness we

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haven't been raising it in the context of he said, she said. I

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raised it in the context that I'm concerned people living in my

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constituency are fearful. Afraid to go to their beds because their

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windows will be smashed or when they get up in the morning their cars

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will be damaged. They are frightened with their children. I don't want to

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live in a kind of society where people are afraid. I don't want to

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live in a neighbourhood where people who are different from me, religion

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or politics or their nationality, feel fearful for their lives. That

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is not the society any of us would want to live in. I'm not interested

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in blaming people for being responsible. I'm interested in

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addressing the issue. I haven't been raising it because there is an

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election coming up. That doesn't directly affect me personally. It's

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a point of principle. Northern Ireland isn't open and welcoming

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place. We have to be if we are a successful to attract the kind of

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business and opportunity that we want to so that everyone in Northern

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Ireland, including people who were born here locally, can have the best

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opportunities in life. We are not going to be able to do that while

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this goes on. To say it happens in other places doesn't make it right.

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OK. I'm not suggesting for a minute it does make it right.

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APPLAUSE Where is this - Let me finish.

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Quickly. Yes, everybody should condemn it. I totally condemn

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anything like that. What I'm trying to say. It's happening all over

:20:34.:20:36.

Great Britain, but only here we are getting it on the front pages on the

:20:37.:20:42.

newspapers. Everywhere it's just electioneering these two guys here

:20:43.:20:45.

are bat and ball with each other. With respect much I resent that. I'm

:20:46.:20:50.

not a candidate in this election. You represent the DUP. You had your

:20:51.:20:54.

say. I was invited on to the programme tonight to put forward a

:20:55.:20:57.

perspective. I don't think anyone in this audience can be in any doubt

:20:58.:21:02.

tonight I have without reservation condemned these attacks. I have said

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they are wrong. Any loyalists who thinks it's an act of loyalty to

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carry out such an attack is wrong. We need to deal with those things.

:21:11.:21:14.

That is not about electioneering. I don't know whether there are votes

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to be won or not for this. It's the right thing to do. Show leadership,

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for the past four years we haven't seen much of it from any of the

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parties up there. You may well say that but...

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APPLAUSE 40 years ago people were killing

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each other on the streets of Northern Ireland. The 40 years ago

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Northern Ireland that I lived in we lived behind locked doors. We were

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looking under our cars and over our shoulders. With the greatest of

:21:44.:21:47.

respect, politicians have brought us at least some way along the road to

:21:48.:21:52.

a degree of normality. It's easy to hit the politicians. Actually, you

:21:53.:21:56.

know, some people in politics have taken risks. Have stretched their

:21:57.:22:01.

constituency. Have tried to move Northern Ireland forward. I think at

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the end of the day, if we weren't getting it right we wouldn't be

:22:06.:22:09.

sitting here. Where is this coming from? That all of these people

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coming from abroad are taking local people's jobs? Where is that coming

:22:15.:22:17.

from this sense of anger that you talk about? Stephen, I will explain

:22:18.:22:22.

that in a moment. I find, see this week, I listened to Martin

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McGuinness and Gerry Kelly, I listened to him telling me what is

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happening in my community. A community who would probably have

:22:31.:22:33.

the ear to the ground more than they would. I find it rich coming from

:22:34.:22:38.

them whenever Jean McConville and their son were looking for

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information for what happened to them. They are very good saying what

:22:42.:22:45.

is happening in our area and what they know about it. When they are

:22:46.:22:48.

asked questions about what happened to Jean McConville and her

:22:49.:22:51.

11-year-old son taken away they are very, very - We are not talking

:22:52.:22:56.

about it tonight, are we? That is not the point it is electioneering.

:22:57.:23:02.

Let us focus. When we talk about raising issues. Posters went up in

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East Belfast about jobs. About jobs. Naomi's party came out and called

:23:11.:23:14.

them racist posters. They weren't racist posters. Put up by people

:23:15.:23:17.

concerned about their jobs they weren't getting jobs. People were

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being brought in by a specific person who promised the local

:23:22.:23:25.

community he would utilise all the skilled labour that there was in

:23:26.:23:29.

that community first before he would thenle bring in people from outside.

:23:30.:23:33.

You are talking about the shipyard? Yes. They recruited as many local

:23:34.:23:39.

people as they could. There weren't local people with the skill base.

:23:40.:23:46.

Naomi Long's party was wrong for calling the posters racist. People

:23:47.:23:50.

on their books who were laid off. They brought in 400 workers from

:23:51.:23:54.

foreign fields to come in and do the same work. At a higher rate. At a

:23:55.:24:01.

higher rate. This is factual. Why don't you leave Naomi along and

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condemn the racism. I do condemn racism. You asked me about the

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poster. I'm telling you about the poster. I'm telling you about the

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posters. Who put the posters up? Get on to racism in itself. It's a lack

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of information out there to people and what is happening in this

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society. Where is the anger coming from? Stephen, the anger is based on

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a lot of things. Misinformation. You sat there and said about faeces

:24:27.:24:33.

being thrown around a man driving up the Newtownards Road. The police

:24:34.:24:36.

have said they believe that was from one of his own community, did you

:24:37.:24:40.

know that? No. We were told that at a meeting with the police 10 days

:24:41.:24:45.

ago they said they weren't sure, but... Also. They weren't sure, now.

:24:46.:24:51.

They weren't sure who it was... Maybe that is why I didn't know

:24:52.:24:54.

about it because you said the police weren't sure. They said that was the

:24:55.:24:58.

line they were taking. As far as I'm concerned, we tried to do something

:24:59.:25:01.

about racism. We got together when that happened much we put out a

:25:02.:25:06.

statement from the loyalist - Jim. Can I say this. You know, East

:25:07.:25:12.

Belfast, like any other community, it's a tight community. OK. The if

:25:13.:25:17.

that type of graffiti is going up, someone is giving it the OK. Do you

:25:18.:25:21.

not think? Do you not think someone is giving it the nod? You know what

:25:22.:25:27.

you are doing as journalists. You are sometimes creating a situation

:25:28.:25:31.

that doesn't exist. Giving kids the right to go out and do other stuff

:25:32.:25:36.

on the walls and think - Don't talk utter nonsense. . When there is

:25:37.:25:44.

"blacks out" on graffiti we are encouraging it? Ask I sat down with

:25:45.:25:48.

the police and representatives of the UVF who said they are nothing to

:25:49.:25:53.

do with this. Who is doing it? The police accepted that across the

:25:54.:25:56.

table. Who is doing it? You tell me. People not fed up of getting jobs.

:25:57.:26:00.

Not getting education, not getting their kids into school. They are

:26:01.:26:09.

that bad - Miss-information. These people are that badly informed that

:26:10.:26:13.

if they are not getting jobs then they should, as any community

:26:14.:26:17.

should, hold their politicians to account. Put Government under

:26:18.:26:20.

pressure to create more employment, taking it out of families because of

:26:21.:26:24.

the colour of their skin, burning people out of their homes because of

:26:25.:26:28.

the colour of their skin. Having people frightened to go to bed at

:26:29.:26:32.

night. Those are people within the community who have some kind of

:26:33.:26:34.

legitmacy. They have none. Absolutely wrong. I have said it

:26:35.:26:38.

from the start. We are trying to do something about it. We are not

:26:39.:26:42.

sitting - what we are trying to do - in the next couple of weeks people

:26:43.:26:45.

are coming together am we have met with the Polish community on Monday

:26:46.:26:49.

and met with different affluent people. We explained to them what we

:26:50.:26:53.

will try and do. People are trying to do something about what is going

:26:54.:26:56.

on. The information levels out there need to come from the education

:26:57.:27:00.

authority when people thinking their kids are getting stepped over. The

:27:01.:27:04.

housing, when they think they are getting houses stepped over. The

:27:05.:27:08.

misinformation needs to stop and proper information given to those

:27:09.:27:11.

communities. It's not particularly helpful for people to be plastering

:27:12.:27:15.

that misinformation on posters and walls which is the point we made as

:27:16.:27:19.

a party. When that misinformation is put on posters and walls it raises

:27:20.:27:24.

questions in the area it creates a sense that people are being competed

:27:25.:27:30.

for the same jobs - There is no misinformation on those posters.

:27:31.:27:37.

Your party was wrong - It's raising rational tensions. It's valid for

:27:38.:27:42.

people to want to have discussion around immigration. What isn't valid

:27:43.:27:46.

is for people to use it to stir up xenophobia and race hate that

:27:47.:27:50.

creates a breeding ground where the attacks will occur.

:27:51.:28:24.

of kids putting it up, there seems to be a certain coordination to it.

:28:25.:28:35.

I cannot speak to the entire community but we would not, I do not

:28:36.:28:39.

understand why it is happening. I think there needs to be a stronger

:28:40.:28:42.

point from the assembly that it should not be happening. The

:28:43.:28:49.

honorary Polish console is here, he can join us on the line, give

:28:50.:28:56.

meaning to you. -- good evening to you. How bad is this situation? Is

:28:57.:29:00.

it being blown out of all proportion, are we at danger levels?

:29:01.:29:05.

I do not think it is being blown out of proportion. As it is a very

:29:06.:29:09.

serious matter that has been occurring for some weeks now. Maybe

:29:10.:29:16.

even for longer than that. We need to have it stopped. I am concerned

:29:17.:29:21.

that this matter would become a political football in some way. This

:29:22.:29:25.

is not what we want to see happening, we need the cooperation

:29:26.:29:31.

of everybody to try to bring an end to the attacks that are taking place

:29:32.:29:35.

on the Polish community, which are quite disgraceful and appalling. And

:29:36.:29:41.

does not reflect, I know it does not reflect the good people of East

:29:42.:29:45.

Belfast South Belfast or anywhere else in Belfast. What is happening

:29:46.:29:51.

is wrong, and I know that people there who have spoken on the

:29:52.:29:55.

programme tonight, want to see it stopped. I met the first minister

:29:56.:29:59.

yesterday, I want to make this clear. And he made it very clear to

:30:00.:30:03.

me, his concern at what is happening. Thank you very much, I

:30:04.:30:10.

can go further than that. Pat Sheehan, I'm resolute, it

:30:11.:30:19.

irrespective of where attacks emanate, I will be... Such activity

:30:20.:30:30.

is an outrage and has no support within the Unionist community,

:30:31.:30:37.

signed the Robinson. If it had been only, we could have understood it

:30:38.:30:41.

better. That is interesting because on your radio show yesterday

:30:42.:30:47.

morning, and MLA from East Belfast refused to condemn. Be a man and

:30:48.:30:55.

apologised to the first Minister. I am not apologising. You have sat in

:30:56.:31:01.

front of people, accused the first minister of not criticising the UVF

:31:02.:31:06.

and there it is in writing. You a man of your honour and will you

:31:07.:31:11.

apologise to him? I will not apologise. This is a very belated

:31:12.:31:17.

condemnation. What is... What is politics about? In this country? It

:31:18.:31:26.

is about leadership. And until now, he has not shown leadership. I will

:31:27.:31:38.

not equivocate in my condemnation, and Sinn Fein have come to the table

:31:39.:31:43.

accusing the Minister not condemning the UVF. Wise up. And by the way, if

:31:44.:31:53.

at any stage the DUP or any other political party wants to accuse you

:31:54.:31:56.

lot wrongly come I will treat them the same. Do you not think that is

:31:57.:32:02.

fair? That is fair enough and I have no difficult with that. The

:32:03.:32:06.

difficulty is that Peter Robinson has a track record of not standing

:32:07.:32:10.

up and condemning violence and it happens. There was serious by the

:32:11.:32:17.

seat -- summer -- there was serious violence in the summer last year, we

:32:18.:32:20.

did not hear a peep from him. This is a belated condemnation, I am glad

:32:21.:32:28.

to see it and I welcome it, but as far as apologising, I will not be

:32:29.:32:35.

apologising. Maybe it needs more than a statement, leadership, more

:32:36.:32:40.

than these words written down. It does, and it is not just about a

:32:41.:32:43.

one-off statement. If you look at the record, Peter has been very

:32:44.:32:47.

clear in his condemnation of the violence from whatever source and

:32:48.:32:52.

whatever circumstance. We are trying to build a Northern Ireland where

:32:53.:32:56.

violence is not a feature of how we live as a society. Whether that is

:32:57.:33:01.

sectarian violence or racist violence. We are very clear about

:33:02.:33:06.

that. And as I said earlier, one of the things we can do in response to

:33:07.:33:11.

this is to unite around something like the Unite against hate

:33:12.:33:16.

campaign, which the ethnic minority groups are saying very clearly they

:33:17.:33:19.

want to see properly supported and reinstated, and we are absolutely up

:33:20.:33:23.

for that. Because we believe that is important. We can continue talking

:33:24.:33:33.

about this on Twitter. Please give our get the round of applause.

:33:34.:33:41.

Let's have a quick reminder of how you at home can get involved in the

:33:42.:33:48.

discussion tonight. You can call us. The calls will cost up to 5p from

:33:49.:33:58.

most man lines. -- landlines. If you are on Twitter, it comes straight

:33:59.:34:03.

into my phone, I talk to you when I get into bed tonight, the details

:34:04.:34:11.

are on the screen. Still to come on the programme. When it comes to

:34:12.:34:16.

cheating, should women take the brain if their husbands straight? --

:34:17.:34:23.

if their husbands straight? -- if their husbands cheat?

:34:24.:34:32.

My next guests have produced three albums, and despite their fame, they

:34:33.:34:37.

have not given up their day jobs. Singing you will never walk alone,

:34:38.:34:40.

ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, The Priests.

:34:41.:34:50.

# When you walk through a storm # Hold your head up high # And don't

:34:51.:35:10.

be a afraid of the dark. # At the end of the storm.

:35:11.:35:31.

# Walk on through the wind, walk on through the rain.

:35:32.:35:47.

# Though your dreams may cost and moan.

:35:48.:35:53.

# Walk on, walk on, with hope in your hearts.

:35:54.:36:02.

# And you'll never walk alone. # You'll never walk alone.

:36:03.:36:31.

# Walk on, walk on. # With hope in your heart.

:36:32.:36:44.

# And you'll never walk alone. # You'll never walk alone.

:36:45.:37:06.

Wonderful. Thank you very much indeed, guys.

:37:07.:37:28.

That famous anthem was movingly sung by Celtic fans in tribute to ox --

:37:29.:37:33.

Oscar Knox who died last week. We will have our own tribute later.

:37:34.:37:41.

My next guests left school at 15, invented modifications and in her

:37:42.:37:48.

own words, worked her cars off to establish her bra business. --

:37:49.:37:53.

worked her bottom. Please login, Michelle Mone.

:37:54.:37:57.

Hello! Good to see you. Hello, everyone! Why are you sounding

:37:58.:38:09.

timid? There is nothing timid about you. I have been reading your story,

:38:10.:38:15.

it is a fascinating story of business success and drive and it

:38:16.:38:18.

started when you were a kid. You just wanted to be an entrepreneur. I

:38:19.:38:23.

did, I came up from the East End of Glasgow. I decided to start a

:38:24.:38:29.

business and I was ten. What was that? I started a paper round

:38:30.:38:35.

business in the east end. Not just a paper round, exclusive rights,

:38:36.:38:40.

somehow, to the paper round. And within a year, I had 17 teenagers

:38:41.:38:47.

working for me. Aged 11? That is not true! They did not want to work for

:38:48.:38:53.

me, they said I was too young. I left school at 15. No

:38:54.:38:59.

qualifications. Not that I'm proud of that. I would have loved to have

:39:00.:39:03.

gone to university, maybe one day I will. So you forge your way up as a

:39:04.:39:10.

kid, you didn't get modifications, how on earth you set up a massive

:39:11.:39:15.

business from there? I think that anyone can do it. I grew up in an

:39:16.:39:20.

area where everyone was, you cannot do this because you don't have

:39:21.:39:24.

money. And you don't have an education, and you're not from the

:39:25.:39:26.

right stock. I used to always question that. And I think that if

:39:27.:39:31.

you got that drive and determination, and can-do attitude,

:39:32.:39:35.

you can achieve just about anything. Don't take offence, because I agree

:39:36.:39:40.

with you, but it is easier said than done, isn't it? If you are telling

:39:41.:39:45.

some kid, no matter what age a person is that there's not having a

:39:46.:39:49.

lot of money, just determination, it needs more than that. It needs luck

:39:50.:39:55.

and money. Surely. I think the harder you work, the luckier you

:39:56.:39:58.

become. I got made redundant when I was 24, and I cried for about six

:39:59.:40:04.

weeks. I had two babies at the time and it was the best thing that ever

:40:05.:40:07.

happened to me. I always believed that when one door closes many

:40:08.:40:12.

others open. It is drive and determination to find it, and I

:40:13.:40:20.

invented Ultima, the first gel filled bra, then Julia Roberts wore

:40:21.:40:23.

it in Erin Doctor bitch and then boom.

:40:24.:40:31.

So where did the idea of bras come from? I was going to a dinner dance

:40:32.:40:44.

and there was wearing a very uncomfortable bra. I thought, why

:40:45.:40:47.

should women go through all this pain for a little bit of game? I

:40:48.:40:52.

said to my ex-husband, I am going to invent a bra, and he said, what do

:40:53.:40:56.

you know about bras, you can't even so a button. I said, I have got

:40:57.:41:02.

breast and I will work it out. That is what I did, ?480,000 in debt,

:41:03.:41:12.

that is what I did. So how did you invented? I went on an invented 15

:41:13.:41:17.

others, that one had liquid silicon gel so it felt like real breast

:41:18.:41:23.

tissue. I apologise to the men, but women love me. And you found a

:41:24.:41:33.

backer? No, not at that time. I just kept going on and on and on, robbing

:41:34.:41:38.

Peter to pay Paul and getting lots of credit cards, and then we

:41:39.:41:44.

launched it and then we launched in Australia and America and all over

:41:45.:41:48.

the world. Was it money driving you, lifestyle? The last to be rich

:41:49.:41:54.

or successful? What was it? When I was eight small girl growing up,

:41:55.:42:00.

watching Dynasty and Dallas, the sort -- the sports car and a

:42:01.:42:03.

sweeping staircase, that motivated me. Now I have got other things that

:42:04.:42:08.

motivate me. Because you have got that? Is it nice to be rich? Well,

:42:09.:42:15.

listen, I have had my trials and tribulations and had to put a lot on

:42:16.:42:19.

the line three times. And I would do it all again. It is not money, we

:42:20.:42:26.

all need money, of course. But I do not think that money makes you

:42:27.:42:30.

happy. Certainly, I really understood that in the last couple

:42:31.:42:33.

of years, money does not make you happy whatsoever. I know many

:42:34.:42:40.

miserable billionaires, honestly, it gives the opportunities. What you're

:42:41.:42:44.

getting at is, when he broke up with your husband, you had to restructure

:42:45.:42:48.

your whole business. Yes, that was probably the worst time in my life

:42:49.:42:52.

that I am so over that now. No bitterness left any more. I bought

:42:53.:42:57.

him out of the business on the 6th of February 20 13th at 9am, and I

:42:58.:43:05.

will never forget it. Are you ruthless? You have to be in

:43:06.:43:09.

business, but I think I am fair. Because he fell out with Julia

:43:10.:43:12.

Roberts? Kenny McLean no, I didn't! Who did you fall out with? Rod

:43:13.:43:18.

Stewart! How did mix-up Julia Roberts and Rod Stewart? They say I

:43:19.:43:24.

did but I did not. The contract came to the end, and I was with his

:43:25.:43:30.

ex-wife, and I went from his golf into his ex-wife. It happens in

:43:31.:43:37.

business. So you dropped her? Her contract came to the end. That is

:43:38.:43:41.

what the BBC says when they get rid of people like me, we are rested.

:43:42.:43:43.

Well you can come and work for me! How? Well, I just woke up one day

:43:44.:44:21.

and I was on the beach in Miami with Rachel Hunter. I was a size 22. And,

:44:22.:44:27.

same age as her. I was crying on the breach. She said - what is wrong

:44:28.:44:32.

with you? I said, I'm over seven stone in weight. She said - why

:44:33.:44:36.

don't you treat your body like a business? It was just like that

:44:37.:44:40.

lightbulb moment. I came back to the UK. When to see a pro professor

:44:41.:44:49.

developing a herbal pill. It helped me lose all the weight. I now juice

:44:50.:44:55.

a lot. A lot of people who say it didn't help I still take them to

:44:56.:45:00.

this day. I bought half the company as well. I believed in them so much.

:45:01.:45:06.

She is not biased in anyway. Honestly, I only buy things I

:45:07.:45:11.

believe. In I run about six miles a day, seven days aweek and signed up

:45:12.:45:17.

for four marathons to run for breast cancer and children with cancer and

:45:18.:45:24.

stuff like that. Losing that amount of weight. I hear people who have

:45:25.:45:30.

lost that amount of weight, it completely changes their attitude,

:45:31.:45:32.

not just to life, but themselves? Yeah. Does it? Absolutely. I think

:45:33.:45:37.

that, you know, if you are not happy with your career, or your weight, or

:45:38.:45:41.

your fitness, only you can change that. I'm now mentoring 10 people at

:45:42.:45:46.

the moment. Between the ten of them they have lost over 30 stone. And, I

:45:47.:45:51.

do believe that it can change your life. It changes your confidence. It

:45:52.:45:55.

changes everything about you. Listen, you got a round of applause.

:45:56.:46:02.

I weighed myself this morning. In the last 11 weeks I've lost five

:46:03.:46:08.

stone. I got nothing! APPLAUSE

:46:09.:46:12.

Have you really? You have lost five stone? Thank you. Well done! I have

:46:13.:46:21.

?100,000 and a kiss on each cheek. Brilliant. That is amazing. You are

:46:22.:46:26.

looking at me saying - you are still that fat and you've lost five stone?

:46:27.:46:30.

Run a few marathons. That is what you need to do, Stephen. That is

:46:31.:46:39.

amazing. Did you lose a wife like I lost a husband? No, I have nobody to

:46:40.:46:46.

lose, Michelle. Well, I'm single! All right. Ladies and gentlemen,

:46:47.:46:49.

please thank, Michelle Mone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

:46:50.:46:57.

Thank you. APPLAUSE

:46:58.:46:59.

Is now before we move on, here is a quick reminder of how to get in

:47:00.:47:02.

touch with us at home. You can call us: The calls cost up to 5p per

:47:03.:47:15.

minute up from most land lines. Calls from mobiles may be

:47:16.:47:19.

considerably more. If you want to tweet us. I read the tweets you send

:47:20.:47:23.

through the programme. We will continue our conversation. He

:47:24.:47:26.

personally and the team, we will be talking to you after the programme.

:47:27.:47:34.

If you are sending us a text, the texts will be charged at your

:47:35.:47:38.

standard message rate. Now, if you are husband cheated on you, would

:47:39.:47:46.

you be prepared to apologise to him? NO. What about trying to stop your

:47:47.:47:51.

man straying by going to Wife School, run by a self-styled

:47:52.:47:56.

mistress who admits she has been the "other woman" more than once. Sarah

:47:57.:48:00.

Simmons is that woman. She is here in the studio. Good Wife evening.

:48:01.:48:07.

School? Indeed. I believe if wives act like the husband's mistress

:48:08.:48:11.

there is less chance the man will cheat on them. Be your husband's

:48:12.:48:15.

mistress is my motto. Can I say something else. How do you be a

:48:16.:48:19.

mistress? Let me talk about equality. We talk about the man

:48:20.:48:23.

straying. Lots of women cheat too. Look at your very own Mrs Robinson.

:48:24.:48:29.

Should the husband apologise to her? Should Mr Robinson apologise to her?

:48:30.:48:32.

APPLAUSE Hold on. Hold on. I don't think

:48:33.:48:41.

that's fair territory tonight because he's - You have talked about

:48:42.:48:45.

him a lot. I'm chairing the show, we are not talking about it. It's not

:48:46.:48:49.

fair to shut down a woman - I'm shutting you down. That is where we

:48:50.:48:54.

are at. How do you be a mistress. What are you talking about? Are you

:48:55.:48:59.

putting some of the blame onto the lady cheated on? I hate the word

:49:00.:49:03.

"blame" I believe in not saying sorry. I believe all parties in an

:49:04.:49:06.

affair or in a marriage, in a relationship, should have

:49:07.:49:09.

accountability when you sign up and you say "I do" it's like a job, a

:49:10.:49:14.

contract. If you are not doing certain things there is a chance a

:49:15.:49:17.

younger model could come in and take that job from you. Communication,

:49:18.:49:23.

accountability and talking. How is it even slightly the responsibility

:49:24.:49:29.

of a woman who has been cheated on? How is it their responsibility? If

:49:30.:49:32.

you are in a relationship with another person it's 50/50. Sometimes

:49:33.:49:36.

an affair can throw things up that is wrong in your marriage. Sometimes

:49:37.:49:40.

sometimes it can be the break alled and you shouldn't be with that

:49:41.:49:43.

person without question. It depends. There are so many different types of

:49:44.:49:49.

affairs, Stephen. Heidi. Hello. The only thing that is being thrown up

:49:50.:49:52.

in a marriage if a man is cheating on the wife is hat wife should not

:49:53.:49:56.

be married to that man any more. Certainly not be apologising to the

:49:57.:50:00.

man because she is not behaving the way a wife is meant to. Why are we

:50:01.:50:06.

showing men as being the weaker sex in this argument? We are apologising

:50:07.:50:14.

for them. Things go wrong in marriages and long-term

:50:15.:50:17.

relationships. I understand that. Things aren't all sweetness and

:50:18.:50:20.

lights when you get married or start a relationship. If things go wrong

:50:21.:50:24.

talk about it with each other before you cross that line of being - of

:50:25.:50:28.

infidelity because it's very difficult to pull back from that

:50:29.:50:32.

whenever the physical line has been crossed. That is what you are

:50:33.:50:36.

talking about. Occasionally at Wife School I get women who say, I saw

:50:37.:50:40.

the signs. I was distant from my husband. I pushed him away

:50:41.:50:44.

physically. When a woman cheats, men would say, I wasn't doing what was

:50:45.:50:49.

need of me to make this relationship - What was he doinged in the

:50:50.:50:55.

marriage. Nothing, probably. That is judgmental. He should have been

:50:56.:50:59.

treating her more lovingly. Both sides of marriages and relationships

:51:00.:51:06.

- OK. Women are tired of bolstering men's egos. We have enough to do.

:51:07.:51:11.

The lady Why can't here. The man just end the relationship. He's

:51:12.:51:15.

obviously not happy in the marriage. So I think it's the least that his

:51:16.:51:20.

wife deserves. Why can't they be honest and open about it and

:51:21.:51:25.

upfront. They are cowards and use their wife as a safety net. Let us

:51:26.:51:31.

speak to Andrew Marshal, author and a marital therapist he says maybe

:51:32.:51:35.

the wronged woman should be the one saying sorry. Explain this to us, Mr

:51:36.:51:42.

Marshal. I have a book called - My Wife Doesn't Love Me Any More. I ask

:51:43.:51:47.

men to do the same thing. What do you do if you love your partner,

:51:48.:51:51.

yes, they have been unfaithful, you still want the marriage to go-ahead

:51:52.:51:55.

because you think there are good things about that marriage. The

:51:56.:51:59.

first thing you have to do is think about how the relationship will be

:52:00.:52:02.

different. The best way to start that is instead of saying - you have

:52:03.:52:05.

to do this? You have to change. I understand you will be angry gry, do

:52:06.:52:14.

all of that. You have to look at yourself. When you look back at your

:52:15.:52:17.

relationship, if there are things that you wish you had done

:52:18.:52:20.

differently, rather than just keeping it to yourself, apologise to

:52:21.:52:24.

your partner because what it will do - Andrew, wise up! You have written

:52:25.:52:29.

books about this, have you? Of course. You look at yourself and ask

:52:30.:52:33.

yourself why you haven't kicked this person out the door if they is have

:52:34.:52:38.

cheated on you. You expect them to say sorry while they have been

:52:39.:52:42.

cheated and betrayed and hurt. They are devastated? I don't even

:52:43.:52:46.

understand this Well, I think, you will find there are lots of people

:52:47.:52:50.

who have actually been in relationships where the other

:52:51.:52:53.

partner has cheated and they still want to be in that relationship. If

:52:54.:52:57.

you don't want to, that is fine. You don't need my help, you need a

:52:58.:53:01.

solicitor. Fine. If you want help you need a marital therapist. Fine.

:53:02.:53:05.

If they want to stay in the relationship they have to find a way

:53:06.:53:08.

of forgiving the cheat, not apologising to the cheat? Yes, of

:53:09.:53:13.

course, they have to forgive, but if you want to start a useful dialogue

:53:14.:53:19.

where you become a team together to save the marriage, rather than

:53:20.:53:22.

getting into criticising and being in the position of saying - I hate

:53:23.:53:26.

you, don't leave me. If you look at what you could do differently, you

:53:27.:53:30.

will find your partner will also start looking at what he could do

:53:31.:53:33.

differently as well and you have have a team to solve this. It's very

:53:34.:53:37.

well to shout and stamp, what comes next? I don't believe - If you have

:53:38.:53:44.

cheated on your partner you have devalued them in your mind. With

:53:45.:53:49.

your mistress and with your mates in the pub that you have been maybe

:53:50.:53:52.

been sharing stories about behind your wife's back. For her to

:53:53.:53:57.

apologise to you that is like a double whammy. I think the man

:53:58.:54:01.

should say sorry, not the wife. Of course the man would say sorry. As

:54:02.:54:09.

he packs his bags. Let us see what the audience makes of this. When two

:54:10.:54:14.

people enter a marriage they take vows to be faithful. If he cheats

:54:15.:54:22.

it's because he wants to. He husband held liableable for his actions? --

:54:23.:54:27.

liable for his actions. Of course he is liable. Women have a contribution

:54:28.:54:32.

to why their marriage has got to this point. Saying, I'm a victim and

:54:33.:54:36.

doing nothing is just saying, it's all the man's fault. Relationships

:54:37.:54:40.

break down because there is a problem with both partners. You are

:54:41.:54:43.

saying he is right. I thought the definition of a "victim" as I

:54:44.:54:47.

understand is they are the innocent party. You can't be an innocent

:54:48.:54:52.

party if the relationship is breaking down. You might be the

:54:53.:54:56.

perfect wife. If he is going to cheat on you and you are doing

:54:57.:55:00.

everything right. Kick him out of the door - Doing things right.

:55:01.:55:04.

Giving them enough sex is that what you mean? If that is top of your

:55:05.:55:08.

list. Yes. Communication, time together. Men want to feel special.

:55:09.:55:14.

This is about sex, isn't it? That is what this is about for whoever it

:55:15.:55:18.

is. Not enough sex - That is male quote. It's not just about sex. That

:55:19.:55:23.

is women - Why are they going elsewhere to cheat? Women want

:55:24.:55:31.

intimate. Men want to have sex. That is the break down. Women want to

:55:32.:55:36.

kiss and cuddle. It's so scary it might lead to sex, they don't want

:55:37.:55:39.

it. Men go right to the boarding gate. Women want a little bit of

:55:40.:55:45.

duty-free! Not all men are like that, come on! The man must have

:55:46.:55:52.

loved a woman enough to ask her to marry him thinking it must be to

:55:53.:56:01.

death we part or until the first time you fart under the duvet - I

:56:02.:56:05.

hate that word. There are so many temptations in this word. You are in

:56:06.:56:09.

the business. You are a handsome man, single, I heard - Can I assure

:56:10.:56:14.

you, I'm not in the business. Even - In the industry. All right! My point

:56:15.:56:19.

is this, so many temptations out. There you can be in the best

:56:20.:56:23.

marriage and still tempted. How did you feel as a mistress in that role?

:56:24.:56:27.

That is a whole other show. There you go. Let's thank our guests

:56:28.:56:33.

tonight. Give them a round of applause.

:56:34.:56:38.

APPLAUSE Right, now, before we do go tonight, I

:56:39.:56:44.

wanted to pay a very special tribute to a little boy who has captured our

:56:45.:56:51.

hearts in Northern Ireland. Sadly, Oscar Knox died last week, as lots

:56:52.:56:54.

of us know, from cancer. He was just five years of age. He was a star on

:56:55.:57:00.

our show. This show, back in February 2013. Here was this little

:57:01.:57:05.

boy in his Superman outfit, full of energy, the tubes and machines

:57:06.:57:08.

attached to him were reminding us what he was fighting. To his mum and

:57:09.:57:13.

dad, we are thinking about you, you were absolutely amazing parents.

:57:14.:57:14.

Let's just have a look at Oscar. Hold on a minute. Like this? Do we

:57:15.:57:42.

get to sleep at any stage, do we? Do you want to box me?

:57:43.:58:07.

He had a way of making you smile. You don't have been in his presence

:58:08.:58:16.

without smiling. I was very, very proud to know him. We will never

:58:17.:58:18.

forget him. A very, very special little boy and

:58:19.:58:33.

very, very special parents. I think that little boy united Northern

:58:34.:58:38.

Ireland. We're very proud of him and Stephen and Leona, we are thinking

:58:39.:58:41.

about you, night, night.

:58:42.:58:49.

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