Tue, 06 Mar 2018 21:30 Y Byd ar Bedwar
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-Subtitles - -Subtitles | 0:00:00 | 0:00:02 | |
-We're here in the old Llwynrhydowen -chapel, Pontsian, Llandysul. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:16 | |
-I'm Wyn Thomas. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:18 | |
-I'm an Unitarian minister for -six chapels in the Llandysul area. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:23 | |
-I'm a farmer's son from Pontsian and -I've been a minister for 14 years. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:30 | |
-Throughout that time, I hid -a major secret about my sexuality. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:36 | |
-A lot of people find it hard -to tell family and friends... | 0:00:37 | 0:00:45 | |
-..and to society in general, -that they are gay. | 0:00:45 | 0:00:48 | |
-That's because of the natural -conservatism that exists in Wales. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:54 | |
-Homosexual relationships -were decriminalised over 50 years. | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
-Tonight, I'm meeting men who battled -prejudice over the decades. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:05 | |
-I'll ask them how difficult was it -for them to say, "This is who I am." | 0:01:05 | 0:01:10 | |
-I meet a teacher... | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
-..a Conservative... | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
-..and a former organiser -of the National Eisteddfod. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
-I like that one actually. -I know you're out of focus. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
-Three months ago, -Matthew and I got married. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
-Until then, very few people, apart -from close family, knew I was gay. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:48 | |
-It was a very special day. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
-I enjoyed every minute... | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
-..but I spent -parts of the day crying. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
-I felt it was the climax -of years of lying... | 0:01:58 | 0:02:05 | |
-..of hiding, of worrying -and feeling scared. | 0:02:05 | 0:02:09 | |
-Suddenly, I felt relief and freedom. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
-I was very aware -that our marriage... | 0:02:14 | 0:02:19 | |
-..would be a statement, not only -of our love and our relationship... | 0:02:20 | 0:02:27 | |
-..but of what we are and what I am. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:32 | |
-Matthew and I had been together -for 14 years. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:37 | |
-Finally, we could be honest -about our relationship. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:41 | |
-The feeling of having to lie -was the most difficult feeling. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:46 | |
-Often, something would happen, -something would come up... | 0:02:47 | 0:02:52 | |
-..and you felt you had to lie -to protect the truth. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:56 | |
-Until 2013, it wasn't possible -for same-sex couples to get married. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:01 | |
-Until 1967, a homosexual -relationship was illegal. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
-Even after that, over the decades... | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
-..a lot of gay men have felt -the need to hide the truth... | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
-..about their sexuality. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:16 | |
-I'm on a journey to try and discover -more about the experiences... | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
-..of gay men in the past -and see what effect it's had... | 0:03:22 | 0:03:24 | |
-..on the lives of people -like myself and my husband. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:27 | |
-I consider it a privilege -to meet and speak to older people... | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
-..who've been through these -experiences during a different age. | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
-Some of them lived through a time -when homosexuality was illegal. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:41 | |
-The battles they fought has given -someone like me so much freedom. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:47 | |
-My journey takes me to a seaside -village on the North Wales coast... | 0:04:01 | 0:04:05 | |
-..to the home of a man who's -constantly battled against the tide. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
-Roy Owen is preparing for a meeting -of the Conway Diners' Club... | 0:04:11 | 0:04:14 | |
-..a diners' club for gay men. | 0:04:15 | 0:04:17 | |
-It was formed almost 30 years ago. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
-Roy says that most members -are in their 60s and 70s. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
-How many members do you have? | 0:04:26 | 0:04:28 | |
-Over 80. | 0:04:30 | 0:04:31 | |
-Really? -It's a club for gay men mostly. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
-Yes, yes. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
-Completely. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:40 | |
-A gay men's club. | 0:04:40 | 0:04:42 | |
-How often do you meet? | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
-Twice a month. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:47 | |
-In the same place every time? | 0:04:47 | 0:04:49 | |
-In the same place every time? - -No. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:50 | |
-Different. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:52 | |
-Different locations. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:55 | |
-Anglesey. | 0:04:55 | 0:04:56 | |
-Here, Conwy. | 0:04:58 | 0:05:00 | |
-Denbigh. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:02 | |
-Fine restaurants. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
-In the 1970s, Roy was prominent with -the Conservative Party in Wales. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:11 | |
-He's a former -parliamentary candidate. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
-He told me he had to travel to meet -other gay men in the early-'60s. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:20 | |
-To Manchester, to be honest. | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
-Sometimes Rhyl. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:26 | |
-There were places you could go... | 0:05:26 | 0:05:29 | |
-..but you were being scrutinised -by the police. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:33 | |
-You had to be very careful -what you were doing. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
-You couldn't kiss in the street. | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
-You had to be very careful. | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
-He also reveals to me that he -was prosecuted in the early-'60s. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:49 | |
-It was a rather painful experience -appearing in court in London. | 0:05:50 | 0:05:56 | |
-I was accused of indecent behaviour -in a public place. | 0:05:56 | 0:06:03 | |
-In a toilet. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
-When he asked me... | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
-..if I was pleading guilty... | 0:06:13 | 0:06:15 | |
-..I said not guilty. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:17 | |
-"What do you mean?" | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
-I said... | 0:06:19 | 0:06:21 | |
-.."There was a lock -on the cubicle door. | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
-"No-one could come in." | 0:06:24 | 0:06:26 | |
-The charge was dropped. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:30 | |
-In 1967, -15 years before I was born... | 0:06:33 | 0:06:37 | |
-..the Sexual Offences Act -was passed. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
-It decriminalised homosexual -acts in private between two men... | 0:06:40 | 0:06:44 | |
-..if both had attained -the age of 21. | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
-Roy told me that being gay -is still difficult. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
-It's been extremely difficult. | 0:06:53 | 0:06:58 | |
-It's destroyed people's characters. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:01 | |
-And in truth... | 0:07:02 | 0:07:04 | |
-..one or two took the easy way out -by committing suicide. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:10 | |
-The emotion was never far -from the surface with Roy. | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
-He's lost friends, he's witnessed -battles, he's experienced feelings. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
-You could see the effect -these experiences have had on him. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:42 | |
-For many of us, Hywel Wyn Edwards -is a familiar face... | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
-..as organiser -of the National Eisteddfod. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
-He told me that as -a young gay man in Aberystwyth... | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
-..he had to keep his sexuality -a secret. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
-To meet men, he had to visit -specific locations in the town... | 0:08:16 | 0:08:20 | |
-..including toilets. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
-Those type of locations -existed in the town. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:27 | |
-Some of them were, how can I say, -more appealing than others. | 0:08:27 | 0:08:33 | |
-Certainly, that happened. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:36 | |
-They were the locations -I tended to visit at times. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:44 | |
-The secrets continued when -he attended university in Bangor. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:50 | |
-I was hiding the truth. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
-I lived a double life. | 0:08:56 | 0:08:58 | |
-At the time, I was also, -on more than one occasion... | 0:09:01 | 0:09:06 | |
-..I was, how can I say... | 0:09:06 | 0:09:08 | |
-..in company with a woman or women. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:11 | |
-I don't know if I'd realised -if people had their doubts or not. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:21 | |
-I was trying to keep what I did -in private a secret from everyone. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:30 | |
-There was a turning point. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:34 | |
-Hywel takes me to a place... | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
-..that has memories -from the beginning of his career. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
-There were many good memories -but one bitter memory stands out. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:44 | |
-This is where I started teaching -back in 1968. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:50 | |
-I was teaching here -from '68 until '73. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:55 | |
-You were here when the allegations -were made against you. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:59 | |
-This is where I was -when the news broke. | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
-Hywel told me that he had started -a relationship with a local man. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:09 | |
-They were both over 21 -and the relationship was legal. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
-Two housemates thought his behaviour -was unsuitable for a young teacher. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:19 | |
-They reported him -to the school's authorities. | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
-At the time, how did you feel? -Disappointment? Anger? | 0:10:23 | 0:10:27 | |
-I'm sure there was anger -and disappointment. | 0:10:27 | 0:10:32 | |
-I was very, very sad, I'm sure. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
-I don't know how I came through it. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
-I remember visiting my doctor. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:49 | |
-His response, -on reflection, was terrible. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:56 | |
-Then again, maybe that was -the expected response. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
-He told me to grow up, -look for a woman, get married... | 0:11:00 | 0:11:04 | |
-..and do what I was supposed to. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:06 | |
-That was the last thing -someone wanted to hear at that time. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:12 | |
-The school's headmaster -and governors supported Hywel... | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
-..and he was able to keep his job. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
-Surprisingly, he's kept in touch -with the teachers... | 0:11:20 | 0:11:25 | |
-..who made the complaint. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:27 | |
-Hywel was a far more forgiving -person than I could be. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:34 | |
-That's not something I should say. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
-I should say, "Yes, we should -forgive one another." | 0:11:36 | 0:11:40 | |
-If I had friends like the friends -who did that to him... | 0:11:40 | 0:11:45 | |
-..I wouldn't have been so forgiving. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
-I would definitely have found it -very difficult to forgive. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
-. | 0:11:54 | 0:11:55 | |
-Subtitles | 0:11:59 | 0:11:59 | |
-Subtitles - -Subtitles | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
-I'm Wyn Thomas, -a farmer's son and minister. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
-I'm also gay. I've just married -my partner Matthew. | 0:12:08 | 0:12:12 | |
-I've always found it difficult to -say those simple words, "I'm gay." | 0:12:13 | 0:12:21 | |
-The reason for this, I think... | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
-..is that it directly -draws people's attention... | 0:12:26 | 0:12:31 | |
-..to the sexual aspect -of the relationship. | 0:12:31 | 0:12:34 | |
-That's not the important aspect, -it's not the meaningful aspect. | 0:12:34 | 0:12:38 | |
-It's not the valuable thing -we try and celebrate. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:42 | |
-It's not what we think about when we -think about a heterosexual couple. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:46 | |
-If acknowledging what I am -has been difficult for me... | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
-..how was it -for gay couples decades ago? | 0:12:52 | 0:12:54 | |
-Tonight, -I'm meeting older gay men... | 0:12:55 | 0:12:58 | |
-..to hear about their battles -and the effect it has today. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:02 | |
-I can empathise with Dafydd Gwylon. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:20 | |
-Like me, he kept his sexuality -a secret for years. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
-It was more difficult -in the '70s and '80s... | 0:13:25 | 0:13:28 | |
-..of the 20th century. | 0:13:29 | 0:13:31 | |
-Because of people's feelings... | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
-..it was difficult in many cases. | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
-In the early-'80s, Dafydd and his -partner Robert moved in together. | 0:13:40 | 0:13:45 | |
-That strikes me as a brave move. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:48 | |
-I often say that the freedom -and right that I have today... | 0:13:51 | 0:13:56 | |
-..derives from people like you... | 0:13:56 | 0:14:00 | |
-..who did something -pioneering, different... | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
-..unacceptable to some extent. | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
-How aware were you -that you were making a point... | 0:14:07 | 0:14:15 | |
-..making a statement? | 0:14:15 | 0:14:17 | |
-I don't think we were concerned -about making a point at all. | 0:14:18 | 0:14:23 | |
-What I felt was thisis where -we felt most content... | 0:14:23 | 0:14:29 | |
-..and most alive. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:35 | |
-I was in a relationship... | 0:14:35 | 0:14:38 | |
-..and I could do things -with another man. | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
-That's what made a difference to me. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:47 | |
-Both campaigned for the rights -of gay people. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
-As a former teacher, Dafydd feels -there was a price to pay. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
-Since then, I haven't had -one full-time job... | 0:14:56 | 0:15:00 | |
-..for decades. | 0:15:00 | 0:15:03 | |
-I had to rely on part-time work... | 0:15:03 | 0:15:07 | |
-..even though I'd applied -for many full-time jobs. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:14 | |
-The education authorities -have been deficient. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:20 | |
-Some school heads -have been prejudiced. | 0:15:22 | 0:15:25 | |
-There have been some -better school heads, of course... | 0:15:25 | 0:15:30 | |
-..but many prejudiced school heads -are still alive in South Wales. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:36 | |
-For Dafydd and Robert... | 0:15:41 | 0:15:44 | |
-..the partnership -that's grown between them... | 0:15:44 | 0:15:49 | |
-..and even though -they disagreed with me... | 0:15:49 | 0:15:53 | |
-..when I described them -as pioneers... | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
-..they opposed societal conventions -and lived together... | 0:15:57 | 0:16:02 | |
-..when that wasn't something -accepted by society. | 0:16:02 | 0:16:06 | |
-Societal expectations caused me -a great amount of heartbreak. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:16 | |
-I came close to turning my back -on the ministry some years ago... | 0:16:16 | 0:16:20 | |
-..because of my sexuality. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
-There is a Biblical verse somewhere -that's spouted by one or two. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
-"If a man also lies with mankind... -both have committed an abomination." | 0:16:27 | 0:16:32 | |
-Many things are an abomination -in the eyes of the Lord. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
-Eating prawns, eating pork, -there are all kinds of sins. | 0:16:36 | 0:16:41 | |
-It's not been a great worry to me, -I have to admit. | 0:16:44 | 0:16:48 | |
-I made my peace with God -many years ago. | 0:16:48 | 0:16:51 | |
-I'm content and happy in the fact -that life, hope and love... | 0:16:51 | 0:17:00 | |
-..will conquer rules -that were in place 3,000 years ago. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
-After the stress he faced -as a young teacher in North Wales... | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
-..Hywel Wyn Edwards lived with -his partner Gareth for 30 years. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
-We moved here in '97, April '97. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:27 | |
-I've been here for 21 years. | 0:17:27 | 0:17:31 | |
-Unfortunately, a few months -after we moved here... | 0:17:31 | 0:17:37 | |
-..Gareth was diagnosed with cancer. | 0:17:37 | 0:17:41 | |
-Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. | 0:17:42 | 0:17:46 | |
-He only lived here for two years. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:50 | |
-I feel privileged that Hywel -is talking to me about his partner. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:59 | |
-Being gay isn't something -he discusses very often. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
-No, I haven't discussed it. | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
-I haven't discussed it with anyone, -in reality. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:13 | |
-Most certainly, I never -discussed it with my parents... | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
-..my close family or my friends -throughout my life. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:23 | |
-My parents would come up -and stay with us. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:29 | |
-Over the Christmas holidays. | 0:18:29 | 0:18:32 | |
-I take it, from that, -that they accepted. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:37 | |
-Whether they accepted it 100%, -I don't know. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:40 | |
-Maybe they accepted it 80%. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
-They could see -that we were happy together... | 0:18:46 | 0:18:50 | |
-..and that was far more important -than anything else. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:55 | |
-Matthew and I understand -how sensitive families can be... | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
-..in responding to a relationship -between two men. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
-My father refused to attend -our wedding. | 0:19:05 | 0:19:08 | |
-My father hasn't been able -to accept the situation. | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
-I can understand completely. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
-I regret causing him -so much pain and worry... | 0:19:15 | 0:19:20 | |
-..and to many others over the years, -to be honest. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
-It's such a pity that something -as simple and fundamental... | 0:19:25 | 0:19:31 | |
-..can cause such problems... | 0:19:31 | 0:19:34 | |
-..and in effect, can split families. | 0:19:35 | 0:19:37 | |
-We can't wait for people to accept. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:46 | |
-We have to live our own lives. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:49 | |
-I have to do -what I think is right... | 0:19:49 | 0:19:51 | |
-..and be faithful -to what I believe is correct. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
-In the past, gay men were -persecuted, accused and punished. | 0:19:58 | 0:20:03 | |
-The Scottish Government apologised -for the treatment some endured. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:08 | |
-On my journey, I hear pleas -for a similar response in Wales. | 0:20:10 | 0:20:14 | |
-For those men -who suffered the injustice... | 0:20:15 | 0:20:20 | |
-..the criminalisation -and the oppression... | 0:20:20 | 0:20:25 | |
-..and the families of those men... | 0:20:25 | 0:20:29 | |
-..who experienced -the feeling of shame. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:34 | |
-Such injustice -that made those men feel shameful... | 0:20:34 | 0:20:41 | |
-..for something so natural as having -a relationship with another man. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:47 | |
-It's time for -the Welsh Government... | 0:20:50 | 0:20:54 | |
-..to follow the wonderful lead -shown by Nicola Sturgeon... | 0:20:54 | 0:20:59 | |
-..and apologise. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:04 | |
-The Welsh Government believes -it's not their place to apologise... | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
-..because the criminal system -hasn't been devolved. | 0:21:09 | 0:21:13 | |
-It's the responsibility -of politicians in London. | 0:21:13 | 0:21:16 | |
-The Westminster Government -have introduced a process... | 0:21:18 | 0:21:21 | |
-..to annul historic punishments. | 0:21:21 | 0:21:24 | |
-The process -can be long and complicated. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
-It appears that only 165 men -in Britain... | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
-..have made a successful claim -over the past five years. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:35 | |
-For one -who was prosecuted 50 years ago... | 0:21:35 | 0:21:38 | |
-..I get the feeling -that the scars are still painful. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
-Why was a gay man prosecuted -in a court of law? | 0:21:43 | 0:21:48 | |
-That only made the situation worse. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
-There was a feeling -in the general public... | 0:21:51 | 0:21:55 | |
-..that we were made out -to be criminals. | 0:21:55 | 0:22:02 | |
-A connection was made -between paedophilia and being gay. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
-Something like that -was misunderstood intentionally. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:13 | |
-They should now... | 0:22:14 | 0:22:16 | |
-..however successful prosecutions -were at that time... | 0:22:16 | 0:22:20 | |
-..they should now be annulled. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:23 | |
-There should be an understanding -that gay men did nothing wrong. | 0:22:25 | 0:22:30 | |
-Despite the lies, -the secrets and the heartbreak... | 0:22:36 | 0:22:40 | |
-..there's no doubt that people -like me face less problems today... | 0:22:40 | 0:22:45 | |
-..than those encountered by Dafydd, -Roy and Hywel over the decades. | 0:22:45 | 0:22:50 | |
-I'm glad that I am, finally, -able to be honest about what I am. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:56 | |
-It's never easy -for anyone to make... | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
-..such a grand -and difficult statement... | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
-..but the sooner the better -that people can be themselves... | 0:23:07 | 0:23:12 | |
-..and live their lives -honestly and openly... | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
-..and do that with the support of -family, friends and the community. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:21 | |
-S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 |