Unemployment Crisis Free Speech


Unemployment Crisis

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This is Free Speech. Your chance to have your say about what matters to

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There's a lot going on. Good evening, welcome to Free Speech.

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It's our first show of 2013 and a first for me, Rick Edwards. I'm

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very happy to be here. And tonight, 'here' is the Brangwyn Hall, in

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Or one of the friendliest cities in the UK. And another regular face on

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Free Speech from now on - reading all your social media messages,

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it's Tina Daheley.Yes - I want to hear what you've got to say.

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laptops, tablets and phones at the ready - get online now with the BBC,

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Facebook or Twitter. Here are the It's time for you to be part of the

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debate on Free Speech. And that's not all - this is the only TV show

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with the Power Bar. It responds in real time to what you think of the

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panel, via Twitter. So just use hash tag "Yes" or hash tag "No"

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followed by the first name of one And here is our panel. First, the

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businesswoman who brought us Peachy Pink underwear and won herself

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Britain's Best Female Asian Entrepreneur along the way. She's

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She's a Welsh Assembly Minister and the leader of Plaid Cmyru. She's

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socialist, republican, environmentalist, anti-racist,

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feminist - I think you're going to Not the typical CV for a

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Conservative MP - he was Rick Astley's guitarist, wrote songs for

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Jason Donovan and owns a string of hairdressing salons. He's David

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And finally, she's a journalist, she's co-author of Generation Vexed

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- so she knows just how you feel - Right, let's get started. My first

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debate - and it's a big one. Call them shirkers, call them strivers -

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whatever you call them, there are more than one million young people

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looking for work, and over a quarter of those have been

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unemployed for over a year. While, overall, unemployment figures are

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improving, long term youth unemployment figures continue to

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cause concern. Here in Wales, the numbers have almost tripled since

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2010. So meet Sam and Caitlin who are finding their own solutions to

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All there is in the valleys in sheep, mountains and not many

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opportunities. Since I left school, I had a bricklayer apprenticeship,

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Engineering, welding, security. I have several GCSEs, or a BTEC in

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interactive media. But I haven't been able to find a job even though

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I left university in May. finished score on the Friday, I

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went to the pit on Monday, I asked for a job under started on Tuesday.

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It is all closed now. I have applied for more than 200 jobs. Out

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of all that, I only had two interviews. They have a grant that

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they can give each person that joins, the money I am planning to

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use as a money incentive to give to employers to hire me. I was

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wondering if you have any jobs going? A three years ago I signed

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up with a government scheme, that is how I got my security licence.

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Friday and Saturday are work in Bristol as a door supervisor.

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Hopefully in Doak future I see myself having a stable Coria, if I

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wanted badly, I will have to make sacrifices. What do you want to

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Oscar the panel? Is a David? As you will see, I have done everything to

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find work. But people in the government label the unemployed

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shirkers. Is that the truth? are not a shirker at all. What we

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are trying to do is get people off the dole queues and into work. You

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have probably seen recently, the court case that because yesterday

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where a young lady said she was enforced into slavery at Poundland.

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At the end of the Daily if you are going to be looking for work, you

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are claiming benefits, we try and get you into some kind of mode of

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working. There is nothing wrong in that because if you sit back and

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you vegetate, this is exactly what you're going to do. I have been

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employed -- unemployed three times, I went on a scheme which is enacted

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now, it has been very successful. Unemployment is coming down, and

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what can I say? You make your own luck in this world. I did myself.

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You were looking on with interest, do you think you make your own

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luck? I think it is he's used to blame unemployed people to beat --

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for being unemployed. High levels of unemployment are in certain

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places and there are low levels of unemployment elsewhere. So in the

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central valleys, it is around 28% of homes that have nobody working

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with them at all. In Swansea, it is about 68%. Yet in Oxfordshire, the

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figures are around 8%. So there is a difference in terms of where you

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live. My party, Plaid Cymru, has argued strongly in the National

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Assembly for Wales, for the government at Welsh level and you

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can level to prioritise jobs and unemployment because we cannot

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afford to lose an entire generation like we did in the 1980s after the

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What do you make of those opinions? I am biased, but I totally agree

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with Lehane. In the 1980s, the coal industry, everything closed down

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because of Maggie Thatcher. But South Wales was the world's biggest

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coal export at the time. And they still have 30 years' worth of coal

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left in them, if they were still open, I don't know if they would be

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more jobs, but debris be stringing of more skills and apprenticeships.

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I would say we need to think in the future about clean, green

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industries, not thinking about Cole, because in the future we need to

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make sure people have the skills to do the renewable technology.

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Another pool I would like to make on that is the assembly in Wales

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doesn't have the resources it, we could have a stronger economy and

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more people in work if the National Assembly had powers over energy.

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Do you feel you do can make your own luck? Have you been to the

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valleys? I am from a town very similar to you, I left school at 16,

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I became a hairdresser's apprentice, within three years I was working

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for an international company. The government can help you but it is

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up to yourself to help yourself. There are not many apprenticeships

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out there these days because everything is being shipped

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overseas. There was a factory in the South Wales area, they have

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loads of jobs, they could have offered apprenticeships but they

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should be tough to China. It is the same, there is a Ford factory down

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here, it is closed off because it has gone overseas. I used to work

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as a security guard and they shut half of that down. Shazia Awan, you

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are an entrepreneur, how did you go about making your own luck? I don't

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think there is such a thing as making your own luck because the

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situation that young people across Wales and the UK are facing at the

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moment is absolutely appalling. We have had the highest increase in

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long-term youth unemployment than any other country in the G8 and we

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haven't weathered the crisis well. But I do think that if you work

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hard and if you are positive in your outlook, then you can do

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anything, whatever you said your mind to. The Prince's Trust delight

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of great work, there was a survey out that they did, 71% of young

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people say that his course they're not taught anything about

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entrepreneurship -- in schools. Britain is great because of the

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many industries we have had over the years and it is a failing of

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the education system that we are not teaching entrepreneurship, and

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businesses in schools. That is what we should be doing, businesses are

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the lifeblood of the economy, not the government. So we need to be

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looking at educating in schools about how to get into business.

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many young people would set up businesses if they had the

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opportunity. I'm originally from Caerphilly, there are lots of

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communities where it is a problem, the parents and grandparents are

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unemployed. What are people saying online? It is getting heated on

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Who thinks that kids are lazy? I'm going to come to you. I did put my

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hand up, then you changed the question! The issue is not that

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there are jobs out there, but there are people going for the same jobs.

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The question becomes how do young people go and get the jobs that are

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out there. It is about becoming more employable, getting on back-

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to-work schemes, the jobs are not going to come to you, you have to

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make yourself employable. There was a Tesco in Cardiff that advertised

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100 jobs and got 2000 applications, that is an open question, how do

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you make yourself stand out? think some people could get into

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voluntary work if they want... Me personally, I have been doing

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voluntary work, it has helped me. So some people should get pushed

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more, especially in schools. think they should be getting pushed,

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doing apprenticeships, would do you think, Kieran Yates? Do you think

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we had demonising young people as shirkers? Yes, I think it is an

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easy way out to label people as shirkers. The only thing that

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retreat service to do it is it turns society against each other,

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and it is untrue. What we have seen is there is a future generation of

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young people with a willingness to work, it is all well and good to

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say you only have to work hard and you make your own luck or

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whatever... I don't think it is true that people don't want to work.

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But there is an element of laziness as well. Benefits are not great,

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anyone who has experienced at first hand, it is not a fantastic

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lifestyle of people sitting around as ladies of leisure. That is not

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what being on benefit is like in reality. The way in which the

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coalition has tried to combat this, with schemes like workfare, the

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youth contract, is in centre biting businesses to take on young people

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by giving them money -- incentive rising. Or by forcing them people

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to work for free, and these are not And let the audience at home speak

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now. Instant judgment time. Are you ready? Let's find out what the

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viewers at home think of what you have said so far. Let's fire up the

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I would like to talk to someone who has been unemployed for five months.

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Lisa, what is your experience of the job-seeking process? I have

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been in work many times and they have been tempered jobs and at the

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end of the contract, I am looking for another job -- temporary jobs.

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It is harder now. The other day I got a rejection letter saying they

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had over 150 other applications. I have got the skills, I have been to

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university and yet I still cannot get work. What is the answer and

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then? How do we stand out? And I want to answer this by posing a

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question to Leanne. Most jobs that are available off for skilled

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tradesmen and the Welsh assembly given any will grant to students to

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go to university, world nationals. With one-fifth of graduates unable

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to find work, would you agree that taxpayers' money would be better

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spent on apprenticeship schemes rather than bribing people to go to

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university? You need to do both. There needs to be enough money to

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support young people into higher education if that is what they want

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but it is also important to support people in the vocational route, and

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my party recently did a deal with the government in Wales to

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guarantee �20 million a year for two years for additional

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apprenticeships, and I am very keen to ensure that they are enabling

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people to get skills in fields like engineering so we can consider how

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we can create a manufacturing base to the economy again rather than

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focus on things like financial services, which have got us into

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the mess we are in now. We have mentioned apprenticeships a few

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times now. I would like to speak to Beckett, a nursing apprentice. Do

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you think you will get a job? really enjoying it so far. There is

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the problem at the end, am I going to be employed? That is a problem

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that I am concerned about. So in spite of doing an apprenticeship,

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you feel it might lead to nothing? Hopefully not but we were see what

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happens. Jade. You decided not to go to university. What did you do

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instead? I went to the Welsh entrepreneur Academy, it gives you

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the knowledge to set up your own business and it gives you a sponsor

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who sponsors the �1,000 and guides you along the way as a mentor.

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have found it a positive experience? Definitely. Shazia?

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That is fantastic. Once we give young people the skills to set up

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their own business, they are skills for life. I don't think it is the

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answer with the government's new contract, which incidentally is a

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business owned up I had never heard of. -- owner. Why had the fanfare

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when Nick Clegg launched it in April last year -- I heard the

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fanfare. I do a lot of work and none of the hundreds of businesses

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are a work with had heard of that Yves there. The youth contract has

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not been rolled out in Wales yet, as it. So this may change. Even so.

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They have not even heard of it. We do business outside of Wales.

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good point from Mikaela. She says, education used to mean a job.

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However that is far from the case now. Yes to apprenticeships. A few

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quick comments. Do people think apprenticeships are the way

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forward? I am on the entrepreneurship course as well and

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I travelled down from North Wales to Swansea. It is a good solution

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but it is only in one place in Wales. They need to expand it.

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And the only way they can get finance is through making it a BTEC

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which means there is so many assignments that we do not get to

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do the practical side as much as we should. So you think it should be

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more vocational. OK. I want to get into the plumbing trade and it was

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very difficult or stop you have to be in with an employer to begin

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with and pay your own money. It was like there was false hope at the

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end of it. You are stuck. obstacle to getting there in the

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first place and you might not get there anyway. Yes. I think the

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problem is, apprenticeships are built as a wonder weapon to end

:19:13.:19:18.

unemployment but it is a case-by- case basis of stock my dad has a

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heating company. The government does not need to get involved. What

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is the point of putting a million people on to an apprenticeship when

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they will not get a job at the end of it. Lots of messages coming in

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and picking up on David's point about making your own luck.

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Anonymous says: Some people have more luck than others. And bring it

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British Industry bag, that is from Emma. -- bring the British industry

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back. Back to you. Just a final comment

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from you, David. You have heard what a lot of the young people on

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saying. Do you think they have a point? Yes, but it must be noted

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that employment has grown under this government. It was in free-

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for-all under the last government. More people are going into public

:20:28.:20:33.

sector work. The private sector was deprived. We are seeing it balance

:20:33.:20:38.

out now and sadly the people who would normally go to the private

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sector when they leave university, the jobs are not there. But to turn

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its back on its head, have any of you thought of setting up your own

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business? I set up my own business at 19. By that time I was 30 I had

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a chain of salons. I had had a music career. Things do happen but

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you have got to chase it. It was tough 20 years ago because the

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country was on its knees after the then Labour government. The RMO had

:21:15.:21:21.

to come in and bail us out! -- the RMO. We are now one of the

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strongest economies in Europe and we are getting better with it. It

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is OK looking towards the future. You are our future. Get out there,

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seize the day, make the most of it, that is what it is about. That is

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what I did, that is what you must do. He inspirational talk. If you

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:21:52.:22:09.

want your point of view it read out, Who has experienced treatment...

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For many young women stepping outside means they face up to a

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barrage of comments? People say we need to take responsibility of our

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behaviour as women so if I go out in a short skirt and a boy touches

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my bum, that is fine. Why should he not take responsibility for his

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behaviour? I don't know, I will start again, if a boy whistles at

:22:37.:22:44.

you, do you take that as a compliment? Where do you stop? When

:22:44.:22:49.

they lift up your skirt? What is OK and what is not? Women go into a

:22:49.:22:56.

club and guys think it is OK to pick you up. As in pick you up?

:22:56.:23:03.

That is not OK. Exactly! People do not have respect for women if they

:23:03.:23:10.

want to go out and look nice. Writer Laura Bates set up Everyday

:23:10.:23:13.

Sexism and asked women to tweet examples of sexism and harassment

:23:13.:23:16.

like the ones we've just heard, and received thousands of messages. She

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told us why she did it. Often, when women complain about

:23:22.:23:27.

sexism we are told to calm down, stop making a fuss, learn to take a

:23:27.:23:32.

compliment. But since I started the Everyday Sexism project, 20,000

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women have shared their stories of sexism and they are not all just a

:23:36.:23:41.

harmless bit of fun. When you know that over 400,000 women are

:23:41.:23:47.

sexually assaulted and 80,000 raped every year in the UK, I don't think

:23:47.:23:50.

it is OK for or woman to be shattered dad and sexually

:23:50.:23:56.

intimidated in the street, even if it is a more minor incident -- for

:23:56.:24:02.

women to be shouted at. For one woman, it started as talk but ended

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at sexual assault on her doorstep. It is the same ideas and attitudes

:24:07.:24:13.

about women that make us excuse the small things but also add up to the

:24:13.:24:18.

more serious ones. We must stand up to them all together.

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But Joanna Lumley and Conservative MP Richard Graham have both spoken

:24:21.:24:24.

out recently and said that women have to take responsibility for how

:24:24.:24:30.

they look and behave. We have got a question about this. I would like

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to ask, are young women in this country putting themselves at risk

:24:34.:24:41.

by going out clubbing wearing provocative clothing? Shazia.

:24:41.:24:48.

Absolutely. Let me make the point clear, I think it speaks volumes

:24:48.:24:52.

about the attitude in this country that there was such an uproar and

:24:52.:24:57.

people disagreed so heavily with Joanna Lumley. What she said was

:24:57.:25:01.

right. You should not be going out dressed like a Hussey, there is no

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other word for it. The you should not be throwing up in the gutter.

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APPLAUSE Of. People judge you by your appearance. When you meet

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somebody for the first time, they will judge you by your appearance,

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by the tone of your voice and by the content of what you have to say.

:25:22.:25:26.

If you are wearing a short skirt with your buttocks hanging out,

:25:26.:25:30.

with your cleavage spilling over the top, with high heels, and you

:25:30.:25:35.

are drunk, you are putting yourself at risk. We need to understand that

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as women, we are vulnerable, and the sooner we take responsibility

:25:39.:25:46.

for that, the better. Men also go out and get drunk. In Cardiff

:25:46.:25:52.

especially, the high street is like a war-zone. When we have

:25:52.:25:55.

international business clients visiting, I will go out of my way

:25:55.:25:59.

not to take them anywhere near a UK high street because I think it

:25:59.:26:06.

reflects really badly on the UK, and it is not just young people. It

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is not attractive to be dressed in this way. Whoever decided that this

:26:10.:26:15.

was an attractive look, the only way of Essex type of look, is

:26:15.:26:20.

barking mad. It is better to look, you know, if you want to adopt a

:26:20.:26:26.

look of somebody in the public eye, Kate Middleton, Pippa Middleton, it

:26:26.:26:30.

is more sophisticated and it will get you further in life then going

:26:30.:26:37.

out in a mini-skirt. That may well be true but getting back to the

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point, is it inviting harassment to go out dressed like that?

:26:43.:26:47.

Absolutely not. Joanna Lumley perpetuates this archaic notion of

:26:47.:26:52.

what it is to be inappropriate as a woman and I do not think that we

:26:52.:26:58.

should be listening and buying into that at all. I don't think it is

:26:58.:27:02.

our responsibility as women to make the decision as to whether we wear

:27:02.:27:06.

high heels or trainers because we may need to run away from someone.

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Although we can run faster in trainers, we should not have to run

:27:10.:27:15.

away from anything at all. It is not us that should be just aware of

:27:15.:27:19.

all these things and harbouring this fear of not being safe on the

:27:19.:27:24.

streets, we should be teaching our young men about how to behave

:27:24.:27:32.

appropriately. APPLAUSE. This is really important

:27:32.:27:37.

to say, the majority of men are kind, decent, intelligent human

:27:37.:27:43.

beings that love and adore and respect women. It is a very small

:27:43.:27:47.

proportion of men that actually treat women in this way. You have

:27:47.:27:50.

projects like the Everyday Sexism project, and I have started to

:27:50.:27:56.

follow them on Twitter, and I found it so depressing. It is women

:27:56.:28:02.

effectively saying, this happened to me, this happen to me, and I get

:28:02.:28:06.

harassed regularly but I answer back and it makes the man who said

:28:06.:28:11.

the comment feel very small. Why aren't these women answering back?

:28:11.:28:17.

Some passionate you points. Are people answering back online? --

:28:17.:28:22.

viewpoints. 95% of people are saying sexism is prevalent every

:28:22.:28:32.
:28:32.:28:41.

A lot of hands up! Who agrees with Joanna Lumley? Yeah, I totally

:28:41.:28:47.

agree with Joanna Lumley and Shazia. I think the problem, we have been

:28:47.:28:51.

talking about the fact that women are the ones being abused, so

:28:51.:28:56.

logically you have to think why? It is because of what they wear, it is

:28:56.:29:03.

an open invitation, it is more provocative. Even though the men

:29:03.:29:10.

are quite nice, as Shazia said... Not all men! The question is, if

:29:10.:29:14.

you look at it logically, why is it women abused more than men? Because

:29:14.:29:20.

of the way they dress. It is an open invitation. It is like that is

:29:20.:29:25.

the food, it smells nice, I can go for it. It I do not like that

:29:25.:29:35.
:29:35.:29:43.

Sometimes you don't get the opportunity to say yes or no.

:29:43.:29:46.

suppose I was a fairy moss is sexual assault the then general

:29:46.:29:54.

sexist comments. Is there a link between this kind of casual sexism

:29:54.:30:02.

and sexual assault? I'm going to go to you. Yes, it is usually women

:30:02.:30:08.

who are drunk who often victimised by men. So I think it is more being

:30:08.:30:11.

able to look after yourself and realise what is around you rather

:30:11.:30:16.

than what you are wearing. So it is up to women to make more and be

:30:16.:30:20.

responsible decision on how much they are drinking, maybe have their

:30:20.:30:27.

friends lookout for the more. good point, you need to shift the

:30:27.:30:33.

focus completely, and in said work on the attitudes of those who rape.

:30:33.:30:41.

-- instead. Does the government take this sense of cash or sexism

:30:41.:30:44.

that seems to be prevalent seriously? There are laws against

:30:44.:30:49.

this. I was shocked to listen to the young ladies saying that you

:30:49.:30:55.

were picked up, all manner of things going on, that is the sort.

:30:55.:31:01.

There are laws to stop that. I think that a woman should be able

:31:01.:31:05.

to where, within reason, whatever she wants, without the threat of

:31:05.:31:10.

being assaulted in any shape or form. Are we not a civilised

:31:10.:31:20.

nation? Are we just pandering to sexism? But it is not an issue of

:31:20.:31:27.

what men wear, it doesn't seem to come into this debate. The

:31:27.:31:31.

experience of sexism is different for the sexes. I think it is

:31:31.:31:34.

important to make the point that we are talking about what John Lumley

:31:34.:31:38.

said so we're talking about how women in the UK address on a night

:31:38.:31:44.

out. Women can be it assaulted on the way to school, it can happen at

:31:44.:31:54.
:31:54.:31:57.

any time why are women in this country going out in that way? I

:31:57.:32:01.

don't find it attractive. They write nicer ways to be sexy and

:32:01.:32:06.

attractive than displaying everything. They are going out and

:32:06.:32:12.

Clover Stroud should be reserved for the bedroom. Everyone's tastes

:32:12.:32:17.

are different. People should be able to wear what they want to wear.

:32:17.:32:22.

We don't live in an ideal world. The fundamental principle is that

:32:22.:32:26.

every single person should be free to go out without fear of being

:32:26.:32:36.
:32:36.:32:36.

raped or rest. -- harassed. Whether they are a man or woman. Everyone

:32:36.:32:41.

also needs to take responsibility for their safety, a man or woman,

:32:41.:32:46.

and for men heed Mr accept the fact they you are more honourable you

:32:46.:32:51.

should look after yourself a bit better if you are a woman forced to

:32:51.:32:56.

pick you are very drunk, you cannot look after yourself. Do we agree

:32:56.:33:03.

that women need to take responsibility and look after

:33:03.:33:09.

themselves? I think comments from Joanna Lumley and Shazia Awan

:33:09.:33:15.

tonight are really unhelpful. It is a blaming of the victims, don't get

:33:15.:33:20.

raped, don't do this, don't do that. Oh my God! Way with you tell

:33:20.:33:25.

someone if you dress provocatively, if you go out like that, you will

:33:25.:33:30.

get raped. It is 17th century rubbish. The police have shown time

:33:30.:33:34.

and again, it doesn't matter what the woman was wearing when they

:33:34.:33:40.

were raped. There is no correlation to short skirts or whatever for

:33:40.:33:47.

sexual assault and rape. Even saying that is disgusting. Very

:33:47.:33:54.

interesting point about victim blaming. Me being a dancer, I see

:33:54.:33:59.

it every weekend, I see classy girls, I see girls with their

:33:59.:34:06.

breasts out, with them in, it all goes... It all goes down to the

:34:06.:34:10.

thing, people don't know their limits. Yes, it is nice if they

:34:10.:34:15.

Gill feels comfortable with her breasts out, crack on. If she wants

:34:15.:34:20.

to go out in a nice dress, go for red. The people need to learn their

:34:20.:34:25.

limits and also another factor is drugs. The nightclub I work in, I

:34:25.:34:31.

have seen it loads of times, people off their night on drugs, picking

:34:31.:34:37.

up random boys, you see them with a group of girls them with a boy and

:34:37.:34:43.

you don't see them again. So it is all about limits? Learned your

:34:43.:34:53.
:34:53.:34:55.

Tony and Elliott, probably reflecting what most people are

:34:55.:35:05.
:35:05.:35:32.

Probably a good time to look at the You can implement the Power Bar as

:35:32.:35:40.

well, get on Twitter now and tell how our panellists what you think.

:35:40.:35:50.
:35:50.:36:01.

If you agree with Shazia Awan, If you disagreed, it is time for

:36:01.:36:06.

you to make your voice heard. Radio One and One Xtra are running

:36:06.:36:08.

a campaign about internet safety called Share Take Care -

:36:08.:36:11.

highlighting the dangers of oversharing online. And Claire

:36:11.:36:13.

Perry, an advisor on children to David Cameron, has called for

:36:13.:36:22.

parents to monitor their children's social media activity. My question

:36:22.:36:27.

to the panel is, do you think young people are aware of the dangers

:36:27.:36:37.
:36:37.:36:40.

online? Let's goatee you first, I had two children, I have one who

:36:40.:36:44.

is 17 and a little boy who is 10. The 10-year-old can run rings

:36:44.:36:54.
:36:54.:36:55.

around me on the internet. Absolutely run rings around me. But

:36:55.:36:59.

as a parent, we do recognise that there are stripped out there, I

:36:59.:37:03.

have spoken to my children about it and there are parental blocks on

:37:03.:37:13.

I have said it in many speeches in the House of Commons, try to sort

:37:13.:37:16.

out the downloading of music issue, I'm probably the only person in

:37:16.:37:24.

here who still buys a CD. The threat is there, the cyber threat

:37:24.:37:29.

is always there. It is how we are going to manage this better in the

:37:29.:37:38.

future. But the legislation in place, there will always be

:37:38.:37:44.

loopholes. Tom, you fronted the Radio One campaign, you are an

:37:44.:37:50.

expert on online safety, what is your take? I think people don't

:37:50.:37:53.

understand how public everything is now. They don't understand you can

:37:53.:38:00.

find out practically everything about anybody. I think the more

:38:00.:38:03.

that people realise that we live in a completely transparent world, the

:38:03.:38:07.

more they will temper their own behaviour. I don't think people

:38:07.:38:13.

understand. You were given a day to research a family and you found out

:38:13.:38:18.

an absolute load, it was extraordinary. You have a sister

:38:18.:38:23.

who is a couple of years older. Mother's maiden name is always

:38:23.:38:28.

important, it gets used as a password. Could this be your

:38:28.:38:36.

mother's maiden name? Your date of birth is...? Your current partner

:38:36.:38:43.

is quite good looking! That is only available to about 1 billion people

:38:43.:38:51.

worldwide. What do we think? Do we need regulation? Are we aware of

:38:51.:38:55.

the dangers? I find it worrying that the government were to

:38:55.:38:58.

legislate the internet and what we can do, we have seen in the last

:38:58.:39:03.

few years, with the Arabs bring, the power of transparency,

:39:03.:39:09.

anonymity, it has been phenomenal - - the Arab spring. And our

:39:09.:39:16.

government is trying to bring in more control. We are not trying to

:39:16.:39:20.

put legislation in place to monitor or police the internet, that has

:39:20.:39:27.

got to be first on the table. What I have been involved in his a

:39:27.:39:31.

commercial transaction, a musician great a piece of work, he sells it

:39:31.:39:36.

in, it is downloaded it legally, it is theft. It is a commercial

:39:36.:39:41.

transaction, that is what we are trying to do. Personally, I don't

:39:41.:39:44.

get what the younger generation want to tell their shoe size, what

:39:44.:39:50.

they had for dinner, who they are seeing, their whole life is out

:39:50.:39:53.

there, the gentleman over their said, you can find it so much about

:39:54.:40:00.

somebody like that. Is it a problem, do you think, that so much

:40:00.:40:07.

information is put out there? think that information gets out

:40:07.:40:11.

there, there needs to be more education I do from home or from

:40:11.:40:16.

schools to let people get more savvy about using the internet. It

:40:16.:40:21.

is about teaching people about how to make certain elements of their

:40:21.:40:27.

lives private. I don't think that regulating things in the way that

:40:27.:40:30.

you might be proposing is the best thing to do, because the internet

:40:30.:40:39.

is beyond regulation. I think this whole idea of trying to regulate

:40:39.:40:43.

the internet wouldn't work, it is more about individuals. And about

:40:43.:40:47.

having faith in young people, we can be educated to learn how to use

:40:47.:40:57.
:40:57.:41:02.

things properly and we can just do They're saying it is not the root

:41:02.:41:12.
:41:12.:41:19.

of of the government to regulate. - So it is a question of trust. Last

:41:19.:41:22.

week, David Cameron 'came out' in support of equal marriage, but less

:41:22.:41:25.

than half of Conservative MPs followed his lead. 22 Labour MPs

:41:25.:41:32.

and four Lib Dems also voted against. Elizabeth has a question

:41:32.:41:38.

about this. Why are people continuing to cling to the outdated

:41:38.:41:44.

notion that one man, one woman is the only real form of marriage?

:41:44.:41:49.

have a direct this to David. thought you would! I actually voted

:41:49.:41:58.

against the legislation last week. The reason I voted against it was

:41:59.:42:03.

because, in my mailbag, constituents sent me over 1000 e-

:42:03.:42:12.

mails and letters and I had in the region if 50 that wanted me to vote

:42:12.:42:18.

for it. As an MP, my job is to listen to my constituents. But I'm

:42:18.:42:22.

also a legislator. And the whole legislation put before the House of

:42:22.:42:26.

Commons last week was a dog's breakfast, it was open to all kinds

:42:26.:42:31.

of legal challenges from Europe and other places. I think if you are

:42:31.:42:33.

going to do this form of registration, you should do it

:42:34.:42:38.

properly. And to be frank, I think will get savaged in the Lords once

:42:38.:42:43.

the bishops get hold of it. And I think it is the wrong time to do

:42:43.:42:47.

this, not in the status of equality but purely because of the timetable

:42:47.:42:51.

of pushing this through. It should have had more time to be worked on

:42:51.:43:01.

in the committee stage. Just fill up an MP's mail back with male and

:43:01.:43:05.

then you will get change whatever law you want! I cannot believe

:43:05.:43:14.

politics by mail bag, that is astounding. That is the ballot box!

:43:14.:43:22.

That is our democratic system. if people wanted to bring back

:43:22.:43:30.

hanging... Let's be realistic. is not playing to the audience. It

:43:30.:43:33.

is a matter of equality and the hand of the quality should extend

:43:33.:43:39.

to all not just the people... Instantly, all Welsh Tory MPs voted

:43:39.:43:45.

against equal marriage, and I think that is fundamentally wrong.

:43:45.:43:55.

all the Plaid Cymru MPs voted for it! When I get married, as a

:43:55.:44:00.

straight woman, I do not think that the love why would feel for my

:44:00.:44:05.

partner is any better or any more pure than a love that a gay man

:44:05.:44:09.

would feel for his partner, or a lesbian. I think what you're saying

:44:09.:44:14.

is fundamentally wrong. David Cameron is a great leader of the

:44:14.:44:16.

Conservative Party, this will probably make me even more

:44:16.:44:21.

unpopular, but he is a modern, progressive leader, and he is

:44:21.:44:25.

stumbling because his own MPs are not supporting him. Equal marriage

:44:25.:44:28.

should have gone through easily, because we have bigger issues to

:44:28.:44:32.

deal with, like the economy, we shouldn't have spent so much time

:44:32.:44:40.

on this. There were four votes that night, one I voted against, or

:44:40.:44:44.

three are voted for. This registration will go through, that

:44:44.:44:48.

is evident, but my job as the legislation, I thought it was

:44:48.:44:58.
:44:58.:45:08.

Has this exposed a fault line in the Conservative Party? It has

:45:08.:45:13.

shown them as being out of touch and not representing... It is the

:45:13.:45:17.

Conservative leader that is bringing it forward! But the

:45:17.:45:21.

majority of your party voted against it. It is your role as a

:45:21.:45:25.

spokesperson to be representing equality and development and change.

:45:25.:45:29.

Her what happens when it goes to the House of Lords and gets thrown

:45:29.:45:34.

out? You are supposed to be representing... I am a legislator,

:45:34.:45:41.

that is my job. You are perpetuating an idea... Let's speak

:45:42.:45:46.

to... What happens when the House of Lords throw it out, you said?

:45:47.:45:50.

The unelected Lords should not be in any position to throw anything

:45:50.:45:55.

in it or out. APPLAUSE That is a different matter,

:45:55.:46:01.

obviously. Do you feel this has become a big negative issues for

:46:01.:46:05.

the Conservative Party? It has certainly divided the party.

:46:05.:46:11.

Personally, I am all for it or stop I can't see an issue with it. In

:46:11.:46:16.

the same way I could marry a woman, I do not see it, there are too many

:46:17.:46:21.

dinosaurs in the Conservative Party that are holding the future of the

:46:21.:46:29.

party back. A good message that has come in online from Mark. He is

:46:29.:46:32.

making a point to people who say it equal marriage should be allowed

:46:32.:46:39.

because of the idea of the family unit. So he says, should infertile

:46:39.:46:45.

heterosexual couples be stopped from getting married? OK, more from

:46:45.:46:50.

the audience. It is a bit harsh to criticise David quite so much on

:46:50.:46:56.

voting against. The fact is, he was voted in by his constituents. We

:46:56.:47:00.

need to get her over the idea that every MP represents the entire

:47:00.:47:07.

country. MPs represent their constituency. David Padmore noes

:47:07.:47:15.

Ben yeses and he voted against it - - David had more noes. If that is

:47:15.:47:20.

what his constituents want, that is what they get. That was a

:47:20.:47:27.

backhanded confident! Men and women married, they have kids, that is

:47:27.:47:31.

how the world develops. If it is men and men, the world will not

:47:31.:47:36.

develop. Not everyone will do that there. But I do not think it is

:47:36.:47:41.

right. It is not how nature works. So you are against it, anybody

:47:41.:47:47.

else? Yes. I am against equal marriage because although I hate to

:47:47.:47:51.

judge people just by who they are, and I would not judge their

:47:51.:47:56.

behaviour, I would judge the morality of their behaviour. You

:47:56.:48:00.

are destroying the very meaning of marriage. You are destroying the

:48:00.:48:06.

harmony between them. There is no reason for equal marriage... No

:48:06.:48:12.

valid reason for it so they disagree with it. She thinks it is

:48:12.:48:18.

interfering with morality, anybody else? I just want to make the point,

:48:18.:48:22.

David, I do not mean to attack you, but as someone who this decision

:48:22.:48:26.

does not affect what so were for, why should you have the right to

:48:26.:48:31.

deny somebody else a freedom that does not impact you? It should not

:48:31.:48:35.

be your decision. If someone wants to be gay and get married to

:48:35.:48:39.

another man, another women, it does not affect you in the slightest.

:48:39.:48:46.

APPLAUSE. This lady will respond directly.

:48:46.:48:50.

The because his constituents ask you to. Leanne looked on in

:48:50.:48:55.

discussed at the notion of an MP listening to their constituents.

:48:55.:48:59.

How will people have their say apart from having a vote once every

:48:59.:49:03.

four years? If you are talking about morality, you should not be

:49:03.:49:09.

able to restrict somebody's freedom when it has no impact upon you.

:49:10.:49:14.

job is to represent his constituents. The in my opinion he

:49:14.:49:20.

made the wrong decision. I think you could argue for some time!

:49:20.:49:24.

think it is such an out of date argument. Homosexuality was

:49:24.:49:29.

legalised in the 1960s. This is still carrying on. I think it is

:49:29.:49:33.

about time we got state and religion, but Bemersyde, and did

:49:33.:49:37.

what is right for people in this liberal democracy, because if it

:49:37.:49:44.

really is liberal, then people should be free and equal.

:49:44.:49:49.

Personally, I do not understand what the problem is. For the people

:49:49.:49:53.

who are not happy about same-sex couples getting married, the

:49:53.:49:56.

government has included in this Bill that the Church of England and

:49:56.:49:59.

the Church of Wales have the religious right to prevent the

:49:59.:50:05.

marriage if they want to, so all we are allowing his choice. Every

:50:05.:50:10.

person to choose what they want to do. And if two people feel they

:50:10.:50:14.

love each other and one to commit, and I thought marriage was about

:50:14.:50:17.

committing to one other person for the rest of your life, I didn't

:50:17.:50:22.

realise it had anything to do with your sexuality and that that could

:50:22.:50:27.

affect your morality. This lady feels it is gender-neutral. What do

:50:27.:50:33.

you say to that? I missed the question. She thinks it is Deng --

:50:33.:50:39.

should be gender-neutral. Let's put it this way. When I have got a huge

:50:39.:50:45.

mailbag from my constituents wanted me to vote against this legislation

:50:45.:50:52.

and I look into, it was a good point you made about the reporting,

:50:52.:50:56.

this legislation will be contested through the European Court of Human

:50:56.:50:59.

Rights and those people who do not want to see gay marriage going

:50:59.:51:04.

ahead will be equally as upset as those who do. If you are going to

:51:04.:51:07.

put legislation forward in the oldest parliament in the world,

:51:07.:51:11.

make sure you do it properly because what will happen is it will

:51:11.:51:16.

come back and bite your heart and my gut feeling is that this

:51:16.:51:19.

legislation will probably time out before me but the House of Lords

:51:20.:51:26.

will savage this. As a person, not a politician, I am as liberal as

:51:26.:51:31.

everybody else. But as a politician and a legislator, it is a flawed

:51:31.:51:35.

piece of legislation and it should never have got this far. If it was

:51:35.:51:38.

going to go before the House of Commons it should have been looked

:51:38.:51:43.

at with more scrutiny. Let's go back to the lady who asked the

:51:43.:51:48.

question. I just wanted to say, because there were so many people

:51:48.:51:51.

for it in government, that the House of Lords would have a lot of

:51:51.:51:56.

pressure on them to vote it in, as far as I am aware. I agree that

:51:56.:51:59.

there have we it has been done is not necessarily the best but

:51:59.:52:02.

because of the amount of pressure from government, I thought the

:52:02.:52:06.

House of Lords would say yes. is a religious element to the House

:52:06.:52:12.

of Lords and that must be taken into consideration. Religions teach

:52:12.:52:18.

tolerance, David. Religions are about tolerance. Also remember that

:52:18.:52:22.

well-organised campaigns can fill MPs' mailbags. That is one thing we

:52:22.:52:28.

have learnt tonight for sure. have celebrities now that are on TV,

:52:28.:52:34.

they get married 24 hours later they have a divorce. Surely more

:52:34.:52:38.

should be done for people to realise what the vows of marriage

:52:38.:52:43.

are ban preventing two people who love each other from getting

:52:43.:52:53.
:52:53.:52:55.

married -- than preventing two people. I do not understand. This

:52:55.:52:59.

is a different issue about how important marriages and whether or

:52:59.:53:05.

not we are educating people in that. For me, the most important thing is

:53:05.:53:09.

two people being able to make a commitment to each other. The

:53:09.:53:13.

wedding rings, at the wedding, at the paper, it is not that important

:53:13.:53:17.

to me personally but to many people marriage is important, and people

:53:17.:53:22.

do want to give a public display of their commitment to another person,

:53:22.:53:28.

and whether that is between two women, two men, a man and a woman,

:53:28.:53:33.

I think there should be equality as a basis for everyone. Quickly. Yes

:53:33.:53:38.

of stock there are so many things wrong with the arguments against

:53:38.:53:44.

equal marriage. You say your mailbag is all. This is equality!

:53:44.:53:48.

We are the minority, you will not have a full mailbags. Arguments

:53:48.:53:52.

that it is ruining the sanctity of marriage. Just because I cannot

:53:52.:53:56.

marry a guy, it does not mean I will be gay any more. I will always

:53:57.:54:03.

love a man, even if I cannot marry him. Quickly from this gentleman.

:54:03.:54:07.

David said about the people who disagree with their marriage being

:54:07.:54:11.

upset. The people who disagreed with desegregation upset when that

:54:11.:54:16.

went through. Why are we getting bigger its affect the democratic

:54:16.:54:22.

process? -- why are we allowing a begets the to affect the democratic

:54:22.:54:28.

process? I just wanted to say that all of these questions seem to be

:54:28.:54:33.

coming about central government, the big religion debate. I am a

:54:33.:54:37.

Conservative and damn proud to be part of that party and I agree and

:54:37.:54:42.

believe we have equal marriage -- I am proud. I think as a country we

:54:42.:54:46.

should behind it, despite the mailbag. Lots of people talking

:54:47.:54:53.

about religion. James asks why religion still has any part in

:54:53.:55:00.

politics? This man thinks Britain should follow the principles of

:55:00.:55:07.

Christ. Marriage is religious, according to him. Emerson has been

:55:07.:55:13.

against gay marriage is as bad as racism. -- MLA it says are bidding

:55:13.:55:23.
:55:23.:55:23.

against gay marriage is as bad as After this conversation, one thing

:55:23.:55:28.

I would really like to take away, especially with the nature of

:55:28.:55:32.

speaking about women and feminism, is a want to move away from this

:55:32.:55:37.

normalisation of things like a slut shaming and calling women hussies

:55:37.:55:42.

and names like this. If we can take anything away from this debate and

:55:42.:55:46.

the way in which we see each other, is that we have to have neutral

:55:46.:55:50.

respect and women should not feel ashamed and dictated to about how

:55:50.:55:53.

to dress appropriately, and I would like all the men and women in that

:55:53.:55:57.

room to take that away with them today.

:55:57.:56:06.

APPLAUSE That is almost it. Hanks to our audience, our panel, and to

:56:06.:56:09.

you at home for sending in your comments. The debate continues

:56:09.:56:12.

online. Join us next time live from Liverpool on March 6th at 8pm.

:56:12.:56:15.

We'll leave you with some final thoughts from young people here in

:56:15.:56:19.

Swansea on our key topic tonight: long-term unemployment. If I was in

:56:19.:56:23.

charge, I would offer more job- training so people with no

:56:23.:56:27.

experience would have more of the chance. I would offer more

:56:27.:56:32.

apprenticeships for the youth of today. If I was in charge, I would

:56:32.:56:36.

create more volunteering opportunities. If I was in charge,

:56:36.:56:39.

there would be more equal opportunities so it does not matter

:56:39.:56:45.

who you know but how good you would be at the job. School should

:56:45.:56:48.

provide more practical qualifications, not just academia.

:56:48.:56:52.

I would freeze the retirement age to make more jobs for young people

:56:52.:56:57.

are. Own would create new training centres for young people. I would

:56:57.:57:00.

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