Episode 2 Free Speech

This programme contains some strong language.

language. language.

This is Free Speech, live. Your chance to have your say

# You see me do it on the TV # You see me do it on the TV

# But you don't look the same on the TV

# Razor sharp blade # APPLAUSE

Good evening. It has been a busy Good evening. It has been a busy

month, hasn't it? Welcome to Free Speech, I am Jake Humphrey, and

tonight we are live at The Dome in Doncaster. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE.

Clearly a very popular building around these parts. This is our

audience, packed with locals who know this sports complex very

I think it's safe to say this building has not seen many nights

like tonight. This is your show in here, it's also your show at home so

please do join us tonight. .

I hope you can spell Free Speech I hope you can spell Free Speech

I hope you can spell Free Speech otherwise you will struggle to get

otherwise you will struggle to get otherwise you will struggle to get

I hope you can involved in the show. Last night in

London we had a stunning online reaction. There were thousands of

messages and keeping across it all, our very own star, Michelle de

Swarte. Good evening. Good evening, Jake. Can you believe it has only

been a month? It has whizzed by. What do you particularly enjoy

you are absorbing, soaking up all the thoughts from people out there?

You know me, I love a little argument, love the drama. Yes, I'm

going to be bringing people online at home into the discussion tonight.

Brilliant. There you go, if you want an argument, get in touch with

Michelle de Swarte this evening, everybody. APPLAUSE.

So we've met Michelle, we've met the audience. It's now time to meet the

panel. First up is Sway. Thank you for coming. Thank you for having

me, man. What made you say yes? Basically through my music I like to

face issues that allow me to hear what young people have to say about

certain issues and put my input as well, I couldn't turn it down.

I've got a single out this week. Oh really? That helps as well.

LAUGHTER. Do you know what, we appreciate your

honesty. Nicola McLean is here as well. Lovely to see you.

you are a big fan of Twitter, are wearing a hashtag on your chest

this evening, I've seen your comments. It's fair to say you have

an opinion or two. I do, and I'm not scared to voice it. If I have an

opinion, I will say it. Good, that's what we want on Free

so you are in the right place. Next to Nicola, Owen Jones is with us.

Lovely to see you here. What your boat about Free Speech?

Firstly, I look a lot younger about half the audience but it is so

important to get young people, are being hammered at the moment in

the recession, to get their voices out because all too often they are

ignored by people at the top. Are you proud that you have those

opinions and knowledge at I don't know, I look about 13 I

suppose, but for me I guess just about - as long as I can raise

some of those some of those issues then that's

job well done. Great. Alongside Owen we have Douglas Murray tonight.

Now, you have done Question Time, you've done Newsnight, are you ready

for the Free Speech audience? will see. We shall. Should be fun

though. Should be good. very much for being here, our panel

everybody. So that's our panel. know who they are, but will you

agree with what they have to say tonight? Well, this screen will tell

All you have to do is send us a All you have to do is send us a

All you have to do is send us a message on Twitter and if you like,

message on Twitter and if you like, message on Twitter and if you like,

All you have to for example, what Sway is saying,

all you have to do is add yes Sway to your tweet and he will power up,

or add no and he will power It's the same for each of our

panellists so you can influence what happens here in the studio. Enjoy

the power. Let's crack on because we are in the middle of the BBC's

Criminal Britain week and if were watching earlier you will have

seen a chilling documentary about mugging. In it, victims like Richard

talked about their experiences. Are you all right?", he was "Yeah man,

give me your phone", and I was like "What? My phone?", and he was like

"Yeah man", he reached into my pocket, I pushed his hand

as soon as I did that he smacked me round the face something shocking. I

thought: right, let's just run away. Horrible. Really horrible, and

that's just one person's story. Whether it's being a victim of

crime, rehabilitation or policing, there's a lot to say and our

audience audience have a lot to say so let's

get straight in there. Rachel, would like to kick us

question? Hi. The prison system doesn't appear to be working;

agree? OK, let's go to you first of all, Owen. A startling fact here.

90% of prisoners under 21 re-offend within two years. Is it working?

No, and that's a damning indictment. I understand people's anger. I was

mugged violently a few years ago and when I was taken to hospital by my

housemate to be treated for concussion, the first thing I did

wasn't to go: I want to sit him down and understand what drove him to do

this; but my starting point is make sure that doesn't happen to me

again or people around me and locking people up as we do - we have

more young people locked up than any other western country, in fact it

has tripled since the early don't think it's working and if you

take the re-offending rate, that in itself shows it's not working.

need to deal not with the symptoms but the causes. So we have

re-offending rates which problem, we also have the fact

we have thousands in prison so maybe also prison sentences also aren't

deterring people? First of all, when you say is it working, it

depends what you think it's meant to do. One of the things prison does is

to stop people re-offending but firstly and most importantly it

takes people off the streets they've done something that has

offended society. Owen refers to that example of being mugged. The

first and most important thing not whether or not the mugger

years down the line is going to be thinking of not mugging

or not that mugger will be and sent to prison because it's

about punishment. It's not just about rehabilitation, it's about

punishment for things you have done that are wrong. But they will

re-offend. That's the point. idea that you can say: there are a

certain number of spaces we would ideally have filled in prison, it's

nonsense. You have as many in prison as you have people who have

committed crimes and been That's it. So how do we get people

before they commit crimes? Sway, know you think you need to sort

people out when they are young. 120,000 troubled families have

identified by the government with social issues at home

think will cause problems in the future. Is that where we should be

looking? Young people, families? Definitely.

I think there are different cases I think there are different cases

for different people. Obviously people committing serious crimes

such as murder and rape need to be taken out of society, not just for a

few months to think about it they need to be taken out so they

are not repeating it and getting away with it. APPLAUSE. Thank you.

But there are some cases where, if it's petty crimes, it could be

simple conversation you can with these youths so you can

understand where they are coming from. If you put them in jail and

not addressing an issue, just hitting a pause button.

minute they go into jail they will convene with other criminals, find

out new ideas, have a laugh about it, come out and re-offend, so there

are a selective group of youth can be talked to and they just need

attention. Know what I mean? So think it's down to each individual.

OK, so a group that needs to spoken to and need attention. Is

there a group that need more than that though, Nicola? Do we need to

be tougher on our very worst criminals? Absolutely. I mean, I

agree with everyone's point for first time in my life actually here.

I do think that I totally agree with what you just said and also with you

guys but I'm one for any murder, anything to do with kids, you know,

there isn't anything that for me - capital punishment, I am sorry, I'm

totally for that. You would see the death sentence returning?

Absolutely, yes. But then the prisons won't be overflowing with

people that are never going to come out anyway. It's a rather harsh

of stopping prisons overflowing. What about murderers or alleged

rapists who three or four years down the line are acquitted? Of course,

but there is that argument and that's why it isn't here anymore,

but then - But the US has the penalty and it's a far more violent

society. The death rate is higher than in this country and we

will end up with innocent people being sent to their death.

happened with hanging and we must never have that again. Of course,

but for me if there's murder, anything to do with children, you

know, but as you said, if it's petty crimes do they need to be sent to

prison? Probably not but I understand you were mugged, so was

I, and the first thing you think of is not to sit down and understand

it, streets. It's difficult. Kids can

understand and learn. OK, strong views. Honest views. What about at

home? It would be good to get the views of people at home with our

wonderful Power Bar. Exactly. Strong points you have made. Are you

ready for some instant feedback from people online? Hit us with it. All

right, fire up the Power Bar. Sway, you are taking the lead there,

getting a lot of online love. How does that make you feel? Good, man.

Nicola, capital punishment maybe not gone down too well with people at

home this evening? That's my opinion. We've spoken about crime

and potential punishments. Maybe now it's important to speak to people

with genuine experience of prison and rehabilitation and I

alongside Simon here. Thanks for coming down here tonight. If you

cool with this we would like you share your story not just of

why you ended up in jail and what it was like but also the rehabilitation

since and how that has helped you. Jail doesn't help anybody at all.

Whoever goes there, it's not a lifestyle to be leading. In other

lines, there isn't much in jail for people to actually accomplish and

also gain from it. My experience, I've got out of prison, I've enjoyed

being out of prison, I've learnt new experiences and got onto projects

and things like that which have helped me out. The biggest thing

my life is to carry on being - on and learning more, and achieving

more, and trying to stay out of prison by having something to do

throughout the day. to do throughout the day for me to

keep occupied. Do you think did anything to help you

rehabilitate or was it the rehab had after coming out?

nothing to help me rehabilitate. was the rehab afterwards. A couple

of projects called Action Housing, there's a few more out there,

Connections, things like that that could help, but they

be actually bothered in the people that have committed the crimes,

are more likely to take on fresh from school, with

qualifications, with an education. If they were more convenient to look

to people with criminal convictions and past history with crime maybe we

would get somewhere in this government, not

government, not back to square one each time. So it's doing the right

thing with people when they are prison, isn't it? Absolutely.

Rehabilitation of course is crucial. My point was simply it's not only

about whether or not you prison a useful experience, it's

whether society gained from that. So your own experience may not have

been helpful for you but it may have been helpful for society. I want to

speak to Jason down here. You know from personal experience how

committing crime can cost right? Yes. I think the problem is

young people aren't aware of the implications at a young age

they are going to have later in life of petty crime. At 17, 18, I did

few drunken things that stopped me from getting jobs and where I

to be now I'm 22. It never really had an effect until I am about

years old and you start the better, more experienced

and you have a criminal record. If there's someone next to you

a a criminal record - maybe they

done a crime but haven't been caught - and you are out the door for it.

They are going back to the minimum wage jobs just because they

get in there because of bit of paper. That's why we

write people off. If we are going to rehabilitate them then

important it doesn't ruin their lives but we need to get people

before prison. That's jobs, opportunities, things to do. I spoke

to some youth workers in Manchester and there's a guy running a football

club. It costs �4,000 a year to run. He pointed out, if that is cut

because of austerity at the it will cost just one of those lads,

to put them in prison for a year, �100,000 . My fear is these cuts

will get rid of things which give young people a thing to do

will be more young people on the streets with nothing to do and you

will end up with more of these situations. APPLAUSE.

If there are more young people on the streets with nothing to do - I

want to get Leon's thoughts - because people think even if there's

nothing to do and you are committing crime because of so few

opportunities, there have to be consequences, don't there?

what was the question again? who have committed crime,

to be consequences, don't there? Yes, but I think we are getting

people too late. People should be held responsible. There's a certain

age when you should know the difference between right and wrong,

pretty much. But it's not as that. If your perspective

right and wrong is skewed from young age, different to society's

viewpoint, then you are there's nothing prison can do about

it. OK. APPLAUSE. Michelle, what are people saying

online at the moment? It is really, really mixed. Leah says if you are

old enough to commit the crime you should take the punishment.

says prison is too easy, that's people re-offend. Fred says: locking

up people doesn't work, costs much money, we need to find another

way to do things. I've got to tell you, some of the responses online

are like essays, they are so long, so people - it is really, really

mixed. Thanks for getting at home. Keep on doing just that.

Danny, we've already heard some of the issues this evening to do

crime and the problems it has meant for them, and Danny has made this

film for us. I've had prison around my life since I was born. I've

Most of them have been in prison. Most of them have been in prison.

One has just come out and there's still one that's in prison at the

moment that I visit once a week. I don't think about where he is,

he has done, just as having a normal chat. When I was

little I ended up in foster care age of 9 and moved to Newcastle

I was 10. I think being from some of my family was a major

part in the way I am now. Because I wasn't down with them getting

what they were getting into. I was away from that life.

My younger brother, he is 17, but I My younger brother, he is 17, but I

feel further down the line like he might do something that could

him into trouble and I want him before he does that.

Are you staying out of trouble? You have to walk away from it.

He is the only one that I get to say: I don't want you to be like the

rest, be the exception. It's my job to make sure my brother's all right.

At the moment that's all I want to do. That's my main aim for my little

brother to stay out of crime. When I wake up in the morning, I think

about what is happening next. I've got family in prison. Who is

to be next into prison? Is my little brother going to be in trouble?

hard to deal with, but at the end of the day I've got to get on with it,

that's my life. Well done, it's over. It's over. You can stop hiding

behind your hand. You didn't enjoy watching that, no? No. All right,

a little embarrassed, but it great film and a really good insight

into not your life but your brother's as well. How

you think it is for him to have strong role model? I think it's

important because if he doesn't have one he will stray down the path that

I don't want him to go down going to get into trouble. I don't

want that for him. What percentage of people do you think end up

trouble because of a lack of role models at home, because they

a strong person to guide them? I think most people end up in trouble

if there's no one to guide them and tell them what to do, which

go about life. What has kept out of trouble, do you think? Being

put in care. Really? You think that kept you out of trouble? Yeah. OK,

Nicola, I will be interested to your thoughts on this. You are a

Mum, you have a family, and it wherever you are in society role

models are so important? I definitely think that role models

are so important and it should start with parents, brothers, it's amazing

what you are doing for your brother. Yeah, you just hope that

you bring your children up well enough to understand, like these

people are saying on Twitter, you know, and like someone said in the

audience, that: do what you would expect people to do to you and not

anything bad. Sad. It's not just having role models though, it's

making sure people have the right opportunities. How do we explain

away that half the prisoners prison don't have the skills for

of jobs in this country? That's failing and an obvious failing in

the education sector there. That's not unconnected to committing

of course, but just quickly that film we've just seen, it was one of

the things that was very striking after the riots across the country

last summer that a lot of people I spoke to about that, people in

communities and things, said the same thing. It was about whether or

not, if you did something that was wrong, whilst law and order broke

down for a bit and the police weren't around, whether or not you

thought the person beside you or that you knew would think badly

you for what you were doing or not. When people thought it didn't matter

whether you were thought badly of, that's when a lot of this stuff

happened. If people stopped moment and realised that it's about

them, it's about every and their own response to the people

around them, to their family, their friends, that when somebody does

something wrong, illegal or whatever, you don't just let it go

but you can mention it yourself, think that's how these things start

a lot of the time. How can people look just in their own

to see what's wrong and right at the very top bankers take billion

pounds bonuses when we are facing cuts and when MPs take expenses and

still aren't facing prison a couple of years later. How can

people like me or people in this audience think we are going to abide

by the rules of law because the people at the top do, when they

don't. Know what I mean? That is an absolutely key point because during

the riots, a backbench MP demanded action should be taken. He had

claimed �8,500 for a claimed �8,500 for a expensive TV

set. He was asked to pay that back. A student who stole a bottle of

water ended up banged up for six months. It's one rule for them and

one for everybody else. that's my point. I would love to

talk to you more about this. Is a reason for people to commit crime?

Michelle, we will come to you for temperature. A little Power Bar

update, it's all fired up. Nicola, you are still behind there, babes,

but Sway and Owen are neck and You are coming up, Owen. Thank

very much. If you would like to get involved tonight, maybe you want to

support Owen, you can do just that. Just add the hashtag and the name of

the panellist that you a yes or no to your comments

like this. Please tonight don't sit and shout at the TV; we would love

you to get involved and let us know what you think. Thank you very much,

audience, for that first one. don't have any more time to

about crime because we are going to have to move on to our next topic

tonight, which is web surveillance laws. This is your opportunity to

help us decide the topics that we should be debating right here and in

the last day or so you got fired up about the suggested

surveillance laws. Yesterday Secretary Theresa May

legislation would be allowed to introduce the government to see your

emails and your texts. Nick Clegg has said they are only draft

proposals but this is serious stuff and it's really got people fired

at home, here in the sure you have a thought on this as

well. We would love you to get involved with Michelle, but Michael

has a question on this. Hello. Are the government's new proposals to

scrutinise electronic an invasion of privacy? OK, it's an

interesting one this, Nicola, because Theresa May has said this is

exactly the kind of thing that could catch a paedophile. Now, you have

already said that you think the right thing for paedophiles and

murderers is the death sentence. Gonna backtrack because I want my

little bar to about the bar, Nicola, this is about

you being honest. I'm joking. this is legislation that can help

catch paedophiles and you clearly feel strongly about them,

you think? I have nothing to hide so I have no problem with someone

going through mine, but I do understand people think it's an

invasion of privacy. I do think with the internet and Twitter and

everything, it does need to get tougher. Is it the only way to do

it, Sway, to look at all of our texts, all of our messages? I don't

- I think they should - it's like the equivalent of people just

walking around and opening your front door and going through

bedroom because you might paedophile. I think it's a bit

ridiculous to say that. They can just go through anybody. They should

actually do their research and find out the people who are doing these

activities in different ways. There's enough technology about

nowadays to not have to scrutinise the general public for what a few

people might be doing behind closed doors. APPLAUSE.

It feels a little bit like one of these huge nets that fishermen use,

they will sweep everything up and might be interested in a bit of it

but will sweep up the lot anyway. We are supposed to live

society where the state stick its nose into

business and people say this excuse, this idea: if I've got nothing to

hide, I've got nothing to about. We shouldn't have a situation

where the state is literally going through our

with family, friends, loved ones, business, and so on. That in my view

is crossing a line that a should never cross. OK, comments at

home, Michelle? Well, Marvin to think: does anyone think that

monitoring emails and phones isn't something they haven't been doing

for a long time already? Does that make it right though, Douglas?

has always been wrong if they have always been doing it. I agree with

your Twitterrer there. I think pretty much

internet is able to be hacked. We saw it recently with journalists.

It's obviously possible to do it. I add one thing. This is very

to something that the Labour government tried to do in 2006,

was very unpopular then as There is a mistake about this, it's

not as I understand it about reading the emails but what is being

for is the ability to get a warrant from a magistrate that allows

to work out the number of communications - not reading

the number of communications and apparently, I understood just

reading it on the train up today, this already happens with telephone

communications. So they can find out legally already how many phone calls

someone has made without listening in. What they are asking at the

moment is to do that on emails as well, so they know if there is a lot

of communication between one person and somebody who is already

be committing a particular offence. So it isn't quite snooping at emails

but it would be very worrying if it got there. It's a step closer

though? It could be though, yes. Michelle, can you tell us what

people at home are making of our panellists? So you lot have all had

your say. Are you ready to get a response from people at home?

Nicola? Absolutely, hit me with it, baby. All right, fire up the Power

Bar. Oh Nicola! They are almost leaving you in the dust but I am

feeling like things can change. Sway, what do you think you have

said that has got people at home so animated? The truth. There you go.

I would like to get a few quick pointers from the audience. Hi, the

government in the past hasn't been very good with dealing with

sensitive data, they have lost a lot of things, left it on trains and the

like. Can they be trusted with this? No, and also the Conservatives - I

never thought I would say this the Conservatives but they were

right about New Labour intruding on our basic civil liberties and they

promised to have a basic repeal to take away some of those attacks

on our civil liberties. We are already the most surveyed society on

Earth, if you look at CCTV for example. I don't think as well -

how, as you say, will they handle the data? They promised they would

get rid of these laws but are talking about reintroducing laws

that New Labour were forced to in the first place. It's an

interesting point that Labour did try and bring through this

legislation, it was opposed by the Conservatives and the Liberals?

There is a reason for that which I think that when anyone is

government they see a lot of information we don't see, find out a

lot of information that doesn't make the news - it's pretty terrifying.

The same thing happened with Obama. What tends to happen is you

overreact when you get into power. think that is happening now. Do you

not think - don't get me wrong, paedophilia is a terrible crime -

but punishing the majority, and the internet is - it's just a witch

really. I'm on the same page you. Like I said, I don't think the

general public should be scrutinised for what a few people are doing

behind closed doors which is negative. I would like to

someone who thinks this is a good idea. A few hands went down. I

think people want their emails not to be seen,

it's like Nicola said, I would sooner have someone look

through my emails than a child be molested in this country. Is that a

necessary thing though, to stop from happening? Yeah, yeahs are, I

personally do, yes. You think they will then be able to track

criminals? Yeah, yeah, if I'm honest, yeah. Fire away. If people

have things to worry about, they shouldn't be hiding anything, to be

fair, but there again, what happens with the News of the World, the

phone hacking, web hag hacking, I think with whatever happened there,

I think this is a late cover-up. think it's already happening

this is their way of cleaning up. It seems the next logical step will be

ID cards. Interesting. It almost feels like people here are

resigned to the fact already happening. What are they

saying at home? Very mixed First of all, I have got Amelia and

Jake, they are very different, Jake says he has an issue with the

government going through his emails and texts, pretty much like what you

were saying there, Sway. Amelia says everyone has to understand that we

need a filter system and what will do is stop terrorist attacks.

Then Bethany says: surveillance on texts? Has the whole world gone mad?

Which I quite like. I'm glad you like it. Do we think this

something that will come to fruition, Douglas? It probably will

at some point. It's already happening that people can find

how many times you have had telephone communication with

somebody and it will happen they will work out how many

you have had an email communication. Picking up on this CCTV point, it is

true we are the most surveyed society in the world but the British

public's views on that, they don't get excited on that. If you

Americans about how they would feel about thousands of CCTV cameras,

they are furious, but in Britain we don't mind and increasingly

something we tend to accept in this country but we do have to know

we would put down a bar. Maybe we are a nation of people with nothing

to hide. Putting down a bar, wouldn't it start with filters and

those excuses, obviously nobody wants paedophiles and

terrorist attacks to be unsurveyed, but isn't the issue

be the start and they will gradually introduce further

the radar? It's a slippery slope and the point about terrorists, do

we want to change the way we ourselves because of terrorists?

a sense that is allowing terrorists to achieve their basic aim which is

to change way we live so we shouldn't in that response act in

that way. It's time for our next topic: sex. In a recent survey,

which British town has the most sex? Who do we think came out on top?

few shouts for Doncaster. Anywhere else? I can tell you, the place

having the most sex in the UK is Aberdeen. Well done, Aberdeen. I'm

not sure whether they proud of that or not. What

where was second? Edinburgh. think Edinburgh? Just along the

road. OK, in second place, And apparently that was before they

were celebrating George Galloway becoming their new MP. LAUGHTER.

In third place, anyone any idea? Doncaster. It was Doncaster!

CHEERING. Nothing to cheer about though, you

are slacking. You are not in first place. That would have been the

bronze medal in sport. Not good enough. More seriously though,

Doncaster I am afraid to say everybody, along with many

British towns and cities has a high rate of teen pregnancies and STIs.

Alice uploaded this video for us. It's not what you think. Sex

education needs to start younger be more in your face. Forget about

the birds and bees, most people have sex for

sex for pleasure and quite often are drunk when they do it. How many

times have you heard the excuse: no, we didn't use a condom, it was

heat of the moment, we were drunk. None of these excuses will help you

when you are being felt up by the you have known since you were 8.

Awkward. Talking about sex in general needs to be more open. If

adults can't even be honest about sex, how are young people

to ask the questions that could seriously affect their health?

Thank you very much. TV presenter of the future there. Let's kick this

off. Is the introduction of sex education to the very young be doing

more harm than good? OK, key stage 3, it's 11 years old. Too soon?

Take Holland, they have younger than that, they are one of

the societies most open about sex and they have one of the lowest

teenage pregnancy rates in Western Europe, they have sex on average a

year later than we do. I remember doing sex ed, I remember my teacher

reading out our questions, things like: have you ever had any

experience with French maids? Which he kindly answered. It is sometimes

embarrassing and awkward but I just feel lots of people don't have a

relationship with their parents where they can talk openly about

sex. Some do, and good on them, but others find it difficult. I worry

that in America, in those places where they don't have sex education,

they have the highest rates of STIs and teenage pregnancy because people

aren't educated properly. you think then, how do we solve

problem like chlamydia? That one is fairly easy. The response is

to go younger and younger and have sex education introduced at

I am not sure that's where children find out about this. Anyone with

younger children or siblings, nieces, will know that people pick

up an idea about this very, very young now. You just can't not. Kids

of four and five know something that goes on, sort of

thing, so the response is always: why don't we educate them

at the earliest possible stage and I'm not sure that's the answer. As

regards to safer sex thing, there is a really clear difference that is

happening in recent years. I was born in 1979, I am old for

audience, but people of my generation were living in the shadow

of the people who had died in the 1980s from the AIDS epidemic. It

a huge thing. Now when I speak to people of the age of this audience,

people don't wear a condom because they think HIV is treatable, a lot

of misconceptions, people really don't realise the risks that are

entailed. I quiver when you say that at the beginning, there are real

problems on the opposite side of having a great time having sex, and

people seem to lose sight of sometimes. What do you think,

Nicola? Owen has already mentioned the lowest rate of teen pregnancy in

Europe; this country has the highest. How do we stop that? I do

think that sex should be better. I think that it

also has to come from the parents because I agree that quite a lot of

children are embarrassed to talk to their parents about sex. I

I was. I have a six-year-old and feel like you can talk to him about

anything, as long as you do it age appropriately. You know, I would

have no problem speaking to my six-year-old about sex age

appropriately. I'm not going to speak about what we are speaking

about now because he doesn't need to know but when I was pregnant with

second son and he asked me how he got there, I didn't start talking

about a stalk because I wasn't going to lie to him. We can educate our

children and they should be able come and talk to us and hopefully

will stop teen - young people having babies. APPLAUSE.

Is it indicative of a bigger in our society? I am sure you have

had the accusation levelled at you, being on page 3, it's sexualising

this country; is that a problem? To a certain degree, yes, but me

appearing on a page topless hopefully doesn't make young boys -

or maybe it does actually - that was a really stupid

say - but if their parents are talking to them about it then it

doesn't matter what other people are doing. If I was a glamour model

years and years ago, it makes no difference. If parents at home are

teaching their children. I you are relying on the parents to do

that though. Well, I do that to my children. My son, (a) we wouldn't

have newspapers lying around the house for him to see that sort of

thing but if he asks me a I am going to answer it honestly and

he could always come and talk to me about sex because it isn't

embarrassing; it's life. Great. Michelle, what's going on online?

Matt says: everyone knows about STIs. Got to say some of us found

out the hard way, but yes. you think? I totally agree with

Nicola that parents should be instrumental in educating their

because they know - it's not like when you are 13 then you are ready.

Everybody's different. So only a parent or career would know when

their child is of the age can totally understand and

the information. Does 11 feel too old, too young or just right for

you? For me personally I think the younger the better because as long

as there's TVs and magazines they are going to see signs of sex

so they should understand this instead of wondering for themselves

and experimenting in weird ways. Jason has a joke for us. Fire away.

Off you go. Oh! Jason? Don't be shy now. It's just a well-known fact

that people from certain areas use bus shelter as protection during

sex. LAUGHTER. It's just coming to be a standing joke around certain

areas and it's a shame but it is true. Younger and younger people

having kids. If they are not aware of it - I don't think STIs are a

problem. It's your own you can get rid of it. You can get

rid of some of them but not HIV. But if it's an innocent life -

this point about sexualisation of our society, a great example we've

just had by the way, because there was a period a few years ago when

topless models suddenly became glamour models and suddenly

less of a thing. Not making personal attack or anything but it

does diminish it, makes it like something a bit more - For

years or - Murdoch, in the 60s. But you said you glamorise sex and you

don't leave your newspaper downstairs. You personally don't but

when I've read a newspaper the last thing I will do is put it on the top

shelf. It lays about. For me, I am in tabloid mags and I do still pose

in my underwear occasionally when people still want to see it but I

don't buy tabloid mags and keep them around because it's up to me what

children see in my house and don't see that. APPLAUSE.

You say you don't leave them lying around but newspapers are free for

everyone to buy anywhere so a young person could buy that newspaper. You

don't know if a 13-year-old for example, is buying it,

are looking up to, they are glamorising and thinking the likes

of people like you and again not personal but they think

the only way to get forward in the world. Where is the line where we

see what's appropriate, what to live up to? I understand that, you are

totally right, absolutely, but for me I don't look for anybody else to

be my children's role models. I'm my children's role model and tell them

how - the real issue at stake is the portrayal of women, that they

will end up being seen as sex objects but I think

separate issue. In the 1950s, often seen as the golden age of family

values, we had the same level of teenage pregnancies as we do today

so it's not true, this idea of broken Britain, things always

getting worse. It's sometimes overegged a bit. We've heard some

interesting viewpoints there. What struck a chord with you? This isn't

a Doncaster problem, yes we are in Doncaster and Doncaster has high STI

rates but this is a national issue. One thing I would like to say is,

bigging up our NHS, we have some absolutely fantastic provision for

contraceptives, but young people who I represent say the

are getting is not relevant to them. Conceptives are there, they

not using them. Would you mind sharing with us whether you

sex education helped you? think sex education helped me at

in any way. From being from Scotland, it's sort of different up

there. They don't start teaching sex education until you are about 16

now, so I think - everyone has had sex by then, yes. Yes, but in

Scotland that's the way they do I think 11 is the perfect age to

start getting kids into contraception. There's a comment on

exit that I've noticed saying - on Twitter - saying they think condoms

should be sold everywhere. I they should be given away free from

shops no matter where they are. A sexual health nurse, a higher than

national average teen round here. Something

is it? I think this is a problem in the UK as a whole. The rates are

coming down in Doncaster and the provision of contraception and

sexual health in Doncaster is very good. We run very successful clinics

in and around the Doncaster area. We've listened to the young people

and responded to their requests. We have clinics every day in the

colleges, we have clinics within some of the schools in Doncaster and

also clinics in and around the youth clubs. They are very well attended

and easily accessible to these people. You clearly think you are

doing enough. Mmm. What about online? Are you stealing my job,

mate? Yes, Which were, weirdly enough his name is, thinks condoms

should be sold everywhere and even in schools. Another point: sex

education in other countries starts at infant school at the age of five.

What are we so scared of here? Another really good point:

than parents discouraging sex, make the child more aware of

consequences and how to prevent them. Thank you for your comments

at home. You can get in touch with Michelle.

I think the final point here, in the I think the final point here, in the

last ten years syphilis has increased 288% in Yorkshire.

Let's move on. Chavs, they are good for a laugh, right? You've got Vicky

Pollard, and back in the day everyone remembers Wayne and

Waynetta, but is it really funny to laugh at others? A bookmaker's ad

suggested tranquilliser Chavs would be funny. Michelle is a

stand-up comedian. It's hard to where the line is,

people are offended but it's funny? Yes, that's difficult.

We tried a bit of Chav to see how people would handle it,

so it was interesting. Let's have look.

All right, so I am about to go on All right, so I am about to go on

stage, I am pretty nervous because it's new material, I haven't

it before and hopefully it goes down well. Please welcome on stage,

Michelle de Swarte! To be honest, right, what I thought Chav meant was

that your Mum was on benefits but you still had decent trainers, and I

thought: sign me up. My mates call me a Chav anyway. Don't really

matter. I wear all the same stuff as what a Chav does anyway so I'm not

really bothered. I didn't realise this was some inside joke by the

middle class. I am proud to be Chav. I went to talk to a mate who I

considered to be a right Chav. I guess it's quite a derogatory term

anyway and some would be offended. Are you offended by the term "Chav"?

He goes: I'm not a Chav, but look at them Chavs. I don't think people

use it as a derogatory term. Normally I don't even worry

offending people but obviously when you are trying to do material for

particular subject you do worry. I think it was definitely

thought-provoking, and I have no tomatoes on me, so hopefully that's

all it was, and I didn't actually offend anyone. APPLAUSE.

Well done, Michelle. No tomatoes anywhere in sight. Rosy, you

question? Yes, does the label "Chav" reflect society's

demonisation of the working classes and the unemployed? What do you

think then, Owen? You wrote the book on Chavs. It can do. It changes

meaning depending on who is saying it and the context. Plan B has just

done this great new track, and he said Chav used to stand for council

housed and violent. Council housed and vulgar. There's a book called

the little book of Chavs which goes through a few jobs: hairdressers,

supermarkets; another book calls all kids on free school meals Chav kids.

Another one, Chav towns, my home town Stockport gets a kicking and

am afraid to say Doncaster doesn't come off much better. The entire

town is written off as a Chav One of them says: there's a lack of

real career opportunities which means that this town is a breeding

ground for Chavs. It's this writing off of entire communities and it's

class contempt. The tip of an iceberg. So more than just a

slang? Yes, and I have always seen it as unfortunately quite a British

trait. Somebody once said the Brits have great fondness for climbing

ladders and kicking away the one we've just got above. People always

cite things like wearing fake luxury brands and whatever, but people

can't afford to buy thousand-pound dresses all the time. They shouldn't

be looked down to because they would like to but it's a very

thing. We sort of want to sneer. OK. Michelle? Caroline says it's

insult so unless you are be insulted back, don't use it.

fair point. Nicola, I'm interested to get your thoughts on this because

Owen has said it's more than just a word, this is putting people in a

class, demonising a certain section of society. I've heard Footballers'

Wives being put in this category, posh and Becks aren't struggling for

money. I have been called a Chav, I'm not offended by it, I have come

from a council estate, I am married to a footballer, I did go into the

jungle, I'm not offended by that. It is just a word and I would judge the

person using it rather than people like me. Celebrities, Katie Price,

Cheryl Cole gets called a Chav, what unites them is they are from

working class backgrounds and people are saying if you start off

you will always be trash. Working class people are never positively

represented. For example, Vicky Pollard, this feckless single

who swaps one of her kids for a Westlife CD, over 70% of people

polled thought she was an accurate representation of white working

class. People are almost airbrushed out of existence when demonised like

that. But everyone laughed at that joke about Vicky Pollard.

just a gag, isn't it? It depends who is laughing. At the end of the

day, if there's a group of people out there that want to refer to

themselves as Chavs, that's their prerogative, but me personally, I've

never met anybody that introduced themselves to me as

Chav so I prefer to address them as their name. I don't think a whole

society of people should be put box and called Chavs just

they are working class. APPLAUSE. And you've spoken out about the use

of the N word in rap. That's not something you are comfortable with

either? Definitely, it's the same kind of thing. The N word is derived

from a much more morbid kind of background. There's a lot of deep

history behind that word, but the word exists. So what a lot of

people, particularly in America, you know I mean, amongst black

communities, they've taken that word and turned it into a word of

endear.. A lot of black people are offended by the use of that word

at the end of the day there's a lot of other issues in the world. If

your whole life is based on combating a word, a sound that comes

out of somebody's mouth that exists then you've got quite a few mental

issues. Michelle, it's that time again? Time for the moment of

truth. Are you guys ready? Yeah? You are like: yeah, yeah, seem

confident there, Owen. Let's fire up the Power Bar one last time. Well,

Sway, you are a clear winner, getting ridiculous - and I have to

say Nicola you are catching up. Not last at the end. Douglas, why

think you are trailing there? do you think people online disagree

with? I never know and never care actually. I would love to hear from

people in the audience who have been called a Chav and how they feel

about it. I am not afraid to say I'm from a council house. I

count myself as a Chav, if other people do that is their opinion.

It's people being judged on what they look like, how loud they play

music. Does it represent people a certain area, being given

name by the word Chav? I'm just trying to define what is working

class. A Chav to me is somebody who is a bit of a scum, spitting,

swearing, no respect for elders, members of general community. I read

a poll on the internet, it was something that you mentioned, Owen,

I think it was Chav towns or Chav protesters.Com and it said

would you do if you were to see a Chav on a street corner and the

majority vote which was 31% out of nearly 700 said that they would

shoot the motherfucker. Ooh. is society, who is how we think.

OK, apologies if people at home didn't like the language you used

there but that's indicative this society of having a problem

with the word Chav? Yes, and the point is it does mean different

things to different people but if you are talking about people acting

in a violent way, call them a thug. That

That doesn't have the same association. Take, for example, the

Bullingdon Club which our Prime Minister and current Mayor of

London Boris Johnson used to be a member of. They used to smash things

up, being drunken and they never got called a Chav. It was youthful high

jinx. It's only ever applied to people of a certain background.

That's the problem. Some comments online, Michelle? Yes, first things

first, hashtag Free Speech is trending in a big way which I'm

excited about. APPLAUSE. Marco says: I think it's pathetic, the way

Chavs are portrayed. Another says: think it is a word used by the

higher class to look down and degrade lower classes. Class war.

Perhaps someone might look at someone like you, Douglas and say he

is a toff, a posho. Would that offend you? No, I think you

judge people by what they say, the way they say things. The point

about Posh and Becks is interesting one. We are very

unforgiving about people who successful in this country and even

when they do really well like the Beckhams we want to find a way to

get at them and feel better ourselves even when they go up. A

terrible trait. People will be demonised by others at times.

You can join us online any time in You can join us online any time in

the next few weeks where you will find details of all our social media

platforms. We are live in Bristol on May 16th. A round of applause for

our panel and for our well. Here is Sway's new

# Nice but naughty, shirts and # Nice but naughty, shirts and

# Nice but naughty, shirts and dresses looking saucy